Creating Jobs, Attracting Capital, and Reshaping Midsize Cities With Nicholas Lalla

In this episode of The Same Day Podcast, host Mat Zalk is joined by Nick Lalla, Founder and Managing Principal of Urban Reinvention Strategies, to talk about creating jobs, attracting capital, and reshaping midsize cities. They discuss Tulsa’s innovation playbook, the importance of civic mindset shifts, and strategies for building inclusive economic ecosystems. Nick also shares how local institutions and public-private partnerships can drive long-term prosperity.

Creating Jobs, Attracting Capital, and Reshaping Midsize Cities With Nicholas Lalla

Nicholas (Nick) Lalla is the Founder and Managing Principal of Urban Reinvention Strategies, a consultancy that partners with cities to develop strategies and initiatives fostering inclusive growth through innovation and emerging technologies. He is nationally recognized for spearheading transformative urban initiatives, including founding Tulsa Innovation Labs, which invested over $200 million to establish northeast Oklahoma’s tech economy. Previously, Nick led Cyber NYC, a major cybersecurity initiative by the New York City Economic Development Corporation, and launched a national resilience program at the Urban Land Institute to help cities address climate change. He is also the author of Reinventing the Heartland, which offers a pragmatic blueprint for cities that aim to build inclusive, tech-driven economies.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

• [03:34] Nick Lalla talks about his vision behind founding Tulsa Innovation Labs
• [10:49] Challenges and successes in building accountability and measurement frameworks for inclusive growth
• [17:40] Development of the Economy Forward Framework to benchmark inclusive economic growth in Tulsa
• [20:13] Addressing heartland cities’ inferiority complex and pushing for belief in local potential
• [26:46] Why Tulsa needs a bold national branding campaign to share its success story
• [39:15] How housing and workforce investments must evolve together

In this episode…

What does it take to transform a midsize city into a thriving hub for innovation and opportunity? Beyond capital and ambition, ensuring that progress is inclusive, measurable, and deeply rooted in a city’s unique strengths requires intentional strategy and thoughtful execution. As communities across the heartland aim to reinvent themselves, what frameworks and mindset shifts are necessary to lead the way?

According to Nick Lalla, a civic entrepreneur and urban strategist, the key is building a tailored, data-driven innovation economy anchored in local assets. He highlights that success depends on identifying a city’s niche and making bold, focused investments — rather than diluting resources across disconnected initiatives. This strategy has not only mobilized over $200 million in Tulsa but also projected the creation of up to 70,000 new tech jobs. Nick emphasizes that sustained impact demands transparency, measurable goals, and a deep cultural shift toward accountability among civic leaders and funders.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Mat Zalk on LinkedIn
• Yonatan Schmidt on LinkedIn
• Keyrenter Property Management
• Keyrenter Property Management in Tulsa | Oklahoma City | Arkansas
• Keyrenter Property Management email address: [email protected]
• Nicholas Lalla on LinkedIn
• Urban Reinvention Strategies
• Tulsa Innovation Labs
• Reinventing the Heartland: How One City’s Inclusive Approach to Innovation and Growth Can Revive the American Dream by Nicholas Lalla
• “Paving the Way for Affordable Housing in Urban Communities” with Devin Howland on The Same Day Podcast
• “Revitalizing Communities Through Multi-Concept Restaurant Development” with Elliot Nelson on The Same Day Podcast
• Richard Florida on LinkedIn
• George Kaiser Family Foundation (GKFF)
• Aspen Institute
• Black Tech Street
• Tulsa Remote

Quotable Moments

• “Tulsa needed to build on its strengths, identify its own niche, and go big.”
• “Every city has assets to build on. You can build a bridge to the 21st-century economy.”
• “You can’t just deploy capital in one-off disconnected ways; that’s not the recipe for impact.”
• “I think, in heartland communities that has a lot of pros but has some cons, particularly from an economic growth standpoint.”
• “The amount of civic pride that Tulsans have for their community is palpable. It’s in your face.”

Action Steps

1. Invest in local talent pipelines: Strengthening partnerships with community colleges and universities ensures a sustainable workforce aligned with regional industry needs.
2. Define a city’s innovation niche: Focusing on a few key sectors enables more impactful investments and faster economic transformation.
3. Set transparent, measurable goals: Clear metrics and public reporting drive accountability and help maintain momentum across civic and philanthropic initiatives.
4. Promote inclusive growth strategies: Designing programs that benefit diverse populations ensures broader community buy-in and equitable access to opportunity.
5. Share your city’s success story widely: A bold branding campaign can attract investors, talent, and national recognition for your city’s progress.

Sponsor for this episode…

Keyrenter Property Management:

This episode is brought to you by Keyrenter Property Management.

Keyrenter Property Management is a full-service property management company that helps clients buy, renovate, and operate real estate assets.

The team helps clients build wealth while taking the headache out of property management.

That’s why, no matter what rental you have — single-family homes, condos, townhomes, or apartments — they can give you the management solutions you need.

To learn more about their services, go to https://keyrenterpmc.com/ or send them an email at [email protected].

Episode Transcript

Intro: 00:05

Welcome to The Same Day Podcast, where we discuss driving incremental business growth and other topics related to real estate, property management and entrepreneurship. Now to the show at hand.

Mat Zalk 00:20

Mat Zalk here. I’m the host of The Same Day Podcast, where I connect with top business experts and real estate leaders. Today we’re talking about economic development, and we’ve spoken about this subject before. Devin Howland, specifically in a previous episode, talked about economic development in Fayetteville, Arkansas. And we’ve also spoken to Elliot Nelson from McNellie’s Group, who discussed community development through restaurants and bars in Oklahoma City and Tulsa and the impact on the economy that those have had, specifically transforming downtown Tulsa from a place you didn’t really want to go to, a place that is now thriving.

Today’s episode is brought to you by Keyrenter Property Management. At Keyrenter Property Management, we are a full service property management company helping our clients buy, renovate and operate real estate assets. We help our clients build wealth while taking the headache out of property management. That’s why no matter what rental you have single family homes, condos, townhomes, apartments. We have the management solutions you need.

Go to keyrenterpmc.com or email us at [email protected]. Today’s guest is Nicholas Lalla, Co-founder of Tulsa Innovation Labs and author of Reinventing the Heartland. A civic entrepreneur and urban strategist. Nick has helped shape tech driven, inclusive growth in mid-sized cities, bringing innovation, economic development and community impact.

He did this in Tulsa. His work in Tulsa has mobilized over $200 million in investments, and it has positioned our fair city as a national model for how cities can reinvent themselves in the digital age. Nick most recently wrote a new book called Reinventing the Heartland for a political blueprint on how cities and the people who live in them can drive, can thrive in a tech driven economy. Reinventing the heartland is available on Amazon and anywhere else books are sold. Nick, welcome to the show.

Nicholas Lalla 02:10

Thanks for having me.

Mat Zalk 02:13

I’d like to start with a lot of energy and then it just fades. Just trickles down from there, just goes and then people can nap as the as the podcast progresses. You have done a bunch of interviews, a bunch of podcasts, a bunch of cool stuff. There’s a lot of great content with you out there. So I don’t want to re hash what you’ve said a number of times already.

I do want to start with the the Tulsa Innovation Labs kind of, I guess initial but seminal thesis about where our local startup infrastructure or or innovation infrastructure should go. Tulsa’s tech niche as you called it. The virtual health, energy, tech, advanced mobility and cyber. You started this in 2018 and kind of pushed this out shortly thereafter with a bunch of help from consultants and your team that you created and whatever else. What is what what what has come of that?

What like real on the ground on the ground effect has actually come from that awesome study.

Nicholas Lalla 03:21

Yeah. So founded Tulsa Innovation Labs in late 2019, formally launched in January 2020 right before Covid.

Mat Zalk 03:33

My times are off. Sorry, but.

Nicholas Lalla 03:34

No, you’re fine. Right before Covid released our foundational strategy, Tulsa’s Tech Niche in June of 2020 which, you’re correct, identified virtual health, advanced air mobility, energy, tech and cyber as what we thought was the city’s tech niche. So maybe I talk a little bit about kind of the founding vision of Tulsa Innovation Labs and talk about progress since that time. Yep. Fundamentally, I believe and I think Tulsa is a globally recognized proof point for this theory, which is that every city in America, probably the world, needs to build their own inclusive innovation economy, tailor made and right sized for them, right?

I’m not arguing that cities like Tulsa need to compete with Silicon Valley. I’m not saying that Tulsa needs to replicate what’s going on in Austin. The argument that I made to the city, to the George Kaiser Family Foundation several years ago, was that Tulsa needed to build on its strengths, identify its own niche, and that the surest way to job and wealth creation in the 21st century is through tech jobs. Right. And that the challenge that Tulsa and a lot of cities experience is taking a scattershot approach to economic development, where capital is spread so thinly that there’s never one thing that has enough activity, capital talent density to materialize.

Right. And so hence, kind of the founding vision of Tulsa Innovation Labs, which was, I believe, that Tulsa can find its place in the innovation economy. We need to take a data driven and targeted approach to do so. We need to find discrete opportunities and go big on them. Right.

For clusters all in on those four clusters. Eyes on the prize, which I think has catalyzed a culture change from an economic development and philanthropic giving perspective in Tulsa. I think there is broader recognition that you can’t just deploy capital in one off disconnected ways, that that’s not the recipe for impact or economic growth. And I think Tulsa Innovation Labs has catalyzed that conversation, hopefully within Tulsa’s philanthropic community and civic leadership class more broadly to your well, what’s to show for it question to to be maybe more blunt than than you were, I think a few a few different dimensions dimensions of success. One I mentioned the theory of change that I brought to Tulsa that we operationalized through Tulsa Innovation Labs, which I, I, I think, I hope continues to pay dividends, that organizations continue to heed that founding vision, Codify some of its principles across different giving areas the need to be strategic, the need to be data driven, the need to avoid emotional decision making, the need to link investments, the need to prioritize, the need to take a long term view of investments.

Hopefully, all of that is being codified in the ecosystem. Second, Tulsa Innovation Labs raised a lot of money in a short amount of time 200 plus million dollars, 80 million from the federal government, 50 or so plus from the private sector, some from the state, some from universities, a lot from philanthropy. That capital is necessary, right? Third, Tulsa Innovation Labs has provided the infrastructure to deploy that capital. It has a vision.

It has a strategy. It is building meaningful, cross-sector partnerships around specific economic development initiatives that have compelling value propositions for all partners involved. They’ve raised a lot of money, and they’re deploying that money through those initiatives. When you step back and you know, the data, you know isn’t isn’t, isn’t concrete and set in stone necessarily. But we hired a top notch outside consultancy right before I left Tulsa Innovation Labs to measure the projected impact of Tulsa Innovation Labs.

And and this was a couple of years ago now. But I think the figures demonstrate that Tulsa Innovation Labs, at least, and the city more broadly, is on a much more positive trajectory than it was five or 6 or 7 years ago. And this is updated because of the tech hubs grant that we won, On, but I believe that the city, the broad kind of coalition, is on track to grow 20 to 70,000 new jobs in tech. About a third of those jobs are attainable without a bachelor’s degree. Tulsa Innovation Labs itself, I think, is projected to catalyze $1 billion in private sector investment.

Those are those are strong proof points. I think the trajectory is strong. What I’ll say, and I acknowledge this in my book, Reinventing the Heartland. And in every interview that I give, you know, proof is going to be in the pudding, right? A positive trajectory does not mean outcomes, right?

Yeah. And I think it’s really important for Tulsa Innovation Labs, leadership, for philanthropic leaders, for funders, for implementation partners to realize that execution is what matters. These initiatives have to work in practice. People have to get trained well. They have to get jobs.

They have to earn wages that can provide for a good standard of living. We need to attract and incubate strong startups. Those startups need to service corporate innovation needs. Those corporate need to hire them, hire their services, buy their technologies. All of that has to work in reality, right?

Which means funding needs to be sustained. Good leaders need to be empowered. Partners need to be supported. There needs to be a culture of accountability among all involved for outcomes, right? There needs to be quantitative goals that are set.

There needs to be tracking systems to monitor those goals, and people need to be held accountable for results. And those results will materialize hopefully over the next 5 to 10 years.

Mat Zalk 10:29

Plus is Tulsa Innovation Labs is the is the framework you put in place, set up to measure, hold, accountability, etc.? Or was it just the kind of initial starting point from which you could do all the rest through, through different and other organisations?

Nicholas Lalla 10:49

That’s a that’s a hard question. I’ll say a few things on the accountability and measurements front, which is that first, Tulsa Innovation Labs and all of this. Obviously, the caveat being when I was leading Tulsa innovation, right. So I’m two years or so removed and organizations evolve. And sure, leaders bring different priorities and styles and competencies.

When I was leading Tulsa Innovation Labs on the measurements accountability front, we did a few things. One is obviously we had KPIs across each of our initiatives, right? How many students are getting trained? How many students are getting jobs, their wages, employer performance, satisfaction ratings, all that stuff. So we have KPIs across our initiatives.

In many places. We have had contracts with operators that held them accountable for deliverables, for results, etc. for services rendered. But more broadly, about midway through my tenure, the question that I had for myself and my organization was, how do we know if Tulsa Innovation Lab, like I know KPIs, right? I can tell you, is this initiative performing or underperforming over performing? Right?

I can tell you all that. But what I didn’t know how to do was zoom out and say collectively, was Tulsa Innovation Labs moving the needle at the city level. Right. And which kind of got me to the question of like, well, what actually is inclusive growth in the first place? It feels conceptual, it’s aspirational, it’s abstract.

And so we worked with Richard Florida, globally renowned urbanist, and the Aspen Institute on the Economy Forward Framework, which is available on my website, which is a set of metrics used to measure that we created together to measure inclusive growth in midsize cities. And it spans industry, accessibility, vibrancy, three metrics in each buckets labor force participation rate by sex and race, share of venture capital, going to women and minority owned businesses, etc. so people can take a look at kind of those metrics. Which I think did a really good job of kind of painting a composite picture at at a high level of what inclusive growth actually meant. It’s not just jobs created which is which in and of itself is such a fuzzy metric. But these were multiple data points.

We benchmarked Tulsa against peer cities and set goals over a five year period of time. I worked really hard To gain broader adoption of that framework. With my philanthropic partners, with my coalition partners, and couldn’t get it done. And and so my understanding is that since that time, I think there’s been some positive development at the funder level about measuring impact, not just at till, but across the coalition. I think critically important to creating a culture of accountability is transparency, quantifiable goals, and a tracking system that measures impact over time and shares that progress with the public.

I don’t think Tulsa is there yet. Honestly, I think there’s a ton of upside potential to be crystal clear with the public about what it is from an economic development standpoint that organizations like Tile and Tulsa Remote and others are trying to accomplish. Right. What is the commitment and pledge to the city to actually accomplish what they want to accomplish? Right.

And then what’s the system for measuring and sharing performance? Right. People have jobs. People have bosses. People have roles and responsibilities.

People set goals. Nobody really wants to be held accountable, right? Like, it’s much easier and fun to, like, go through life and do whatever the hell you want without somebody breathing down your neck and saying, hey, you said you were going to do this, but you haven’t done it yet. I think that given the scale of investments, given the criticality of those investments to every aspect of life in Tulsa, I think it’s critically important that there is a culture of accountability between the philanthropic, public and social sector and private sectors and the broader community to hold funders accountable for deploying capital in smart, impactful and inclusive ways. That means communities should have a say in building solutions.

There should be goals. There should be long term funding commitments, and there should be transparency and accountability about how those funds are deployed to make sure that philanthropic money is being spent wisely and toward just and impactful ends in Tulsa. I think that’s really important. I think I think like everything in Tulsa and maybe life baby steps in the right direction. Yeah, I’d love to see.

I’d love to see more progress on that front.

Mat Zalk 16:19

Yeah. We’ve I’ve seen on on your nine your nine point metric. Yeah. I’ve seen a number of those at the city that have come from various places and that’s, you know, community engagement. It is walkability of of neighborhoods.

It’s a whole bunch of things at the city level for development of neighborhoods. I feel like some of them can be subjective. Where we attribute a positive outcome, we’d say, look, the standard would be X, and this has a yellow traffic light because it’s half x. And we think that three quarters x is a green traffic light in this example. And it’s there’s no objective there.

There’s no standard that’s across communities. So if you said the female labor participation rate is X in one community, we’re going to say X is great because there are a certain number of women that stay home with their families, and that is a 100% valid use of their time and energy and effort and raising their children and another community. We may say, you know, it should be two X. And that’s a you know, that’s the standard we’re trying to meet. And, you know, from neighborhood to neighborhood that’s going to vary depending on 100 different things.

So sometimes those. Even if you’re trying to measure accountability and track people, you’re going to have difficulty determining your standard or coming to terms across a various stakeholders of what the the objective standard should be.

Nicholas Lalla 17:40

But I think I think that’s fair. What I, what I would say is I think with the economy forward framework does and I forget the exact number, but folks can look it up is benchmark Tulsa against 30 to 40 or 50 peer cities. And so yeah it’s it’s not just, you know, Kansas City or Austin or Oklahoma City. It’s a it’s a collection of, of peer cities that tries to give some precise guidance in, in what is otherwise a super fungible exercise. Right.

And, and I say this explicitly in the book, which is like I forget the exact line, but like something like, look, spreadsheets are easily manipulatable, right? Like, you can you can make the numbers shake out, however really you want them. I think the bottom line point though is. Setting a goal and a commitment to achieve the goal and tracking progress over time. And I think people aren’t going to be like, well, you know, I mean, people can nitpick about everything, but like, I think people want to see transparency.

I think they want to see vision. I think they want to see bold commitments. And I think that they want leaders and high net worth individuals and folks in power held accountable for the capital that they’re spending. That’s alter altering every aspect of Tulsa life. Yeah.

Right. I think that’s really important.

Mat Zalk 19:07

There’s a palpable sense in Tulsa. Or there’s at least a feeling among my peers that the horizon that that the future is brighter and there’s much more conversation around innovation and tech than when I first arrived in 2017. You’ve talked before about the the mindset shift that needs to take place in communities in heartland cities towards a philosophy that we too can lead the way in specific tech innovations. And you’ve talked about drawing on legacy industries to create what you said earlier in our conversation is a tech sector that is based on what we have here intrinsically. And and that we too, in, in the heartland, can lead the way in innovation, not just San Francisco and not just New York.

Do you think that that heartland cities have made progress in their view of their own self-worth in the tech space? Are we still at Ground zero?

Nicholas Lalla 20:13

I think I think Tulsa obviously has. Tulsa obviously has I think Build back. I think federal grant programs like Build Back Better and Tech Hubs went a long way to investing in a lot of heartland communities. I think more broadly, I think the challenge probably still exists. I’m from Louisiana, and so I, you know, have spent most of my adult life, maybe in New York.

So, you know, have have learned or have learned to feign a sense of swagger. But, you know, in thinking about my Louisiana roots, I think that’s one of the reasons why Tulsa resonated with me so. And I think it’s I think it’s a challenge. I think it’s a bad thing, honestly, which is a few. Let me explain what I mean.

And you kind of previewed some of this. I think that in in Midwestern and certain southern cities, there is an inferiority complex. that looks to the East coast, that looks to Silicon Valley and says, we’re not good enough. We can’t do what they do. We don’t have what they have.

We’re never going to get anywhere. There’s a. A humbleness and a humility. I think, in heartland communities that has a lot of pros but has some cons, particularly from an economic growth standpoint. Right.

Yeah. The lack of self confidence, the. Reluctance to showcase the assets that communities do have and to brag a little. I think continues to be a challenge. And then even maybe more pernicious, I continue to hear from heartland leaders?

And I heard it from Tulsa leaders when I first got to town in 2018. That oh, well, we’ve tried this before and it’s failed. So we got burned and we wasted a lot of money and it’s just not going to work. Right. And so folks can be jaded.

And when you put together jaded philanthropic leaders and jaded civic leaders with a humble culture with an inferiority complex, the result is a lack of vision and a lack of mega investments, because nobody believes in the community enough to invest in it in a sizable way. Yeah. And the the counterargument to all that, and this is kind of the key thesis of the book and the kind of founding vision that I brought to Tulsa Innovation Labs was. That’s total fucking bullshit. Total BS.

It’s all in your head. Every city has assets to build on. You can build a bridge to the 21st century economy. If you’re really smart and strategic and data driven, and you invest in yourself, and here’s how to do it right. And so again, the idea was never we’re going to compete with Silicon Valley.

The idea was never we want to replicate what Austin has. Nope. Be the best version of yourself. That’s that’s that’s the objective. That’s the mission.

Right. And I think the state is correct. And I really in retrospect, I should I wanted to put a map in the book Mapping Fortune 500 companies. I think most fortune 500 companies like are located. Their headquarters are located in the heartland.

It’s not the coast that’s funny.

Mat Zalk 23:54

And so there’s a lot of Berkshire Hathaway portfolio companies around here, too. There you go. Yeah.

Nicholas Lalla 24:00

You build on those legacy industries. You find adjacent emerging tech clusters that can serve as a bridge, and you invest in them. You find specific clusters or subclusters or parts of an industry value chain in which you can lean in and be a leader, and you find aspects of all that. That offer a wide range of jobs across educational attainment levels. So you don’t need a PhD from Stanford or PhD in quantum computing to get a job.

Right. And that’s that’s what we did. And I think the only honestly, like when I was like having these conversations, I think it resonated with people. I think there was a healthy degree of skepticism. I think some people thought it was total BS and I was just making it up or for self-interest reasons.

What really happened that I think kicked started Tulsa Innovation Labs as momentum was when we started winning federal grants. We’re like, oh, well, if Nick Lalla says it, that’s bullshit. But if the federal government wants to give us $30 million, maybe something. Yeah, exactly. Right.

And that’s where that’s where I think the power of early, early, early investors in catalysing nascent ideas, I think is really important. And major credit to the George Kaiser Family Foundation for for funding Tulsa Innovation Labs and to the federal government for that initial Build Back Better grant, which kind of took our advanced air mobility portfolio off and running.

Mat Zalk 25:34

Does you said something, you know, that resonates with my my Tulsa spirit, which is we are a lot of towns in the heartland are self-deprecating, humble. Driving a fancy car is not kind of core to what we do. Even if you have money. Yep. Do you think that if we were and I’ll say in Nebraska, I don’t know if you know this, I was in Omaha last week.

I was sitting next to this guy, Connor Flood, who’s a studying cyber security at the University of Nebraska Omaha. And he was saying that there was a campaign in Nebraska that was like a pseudo formal campaign, but it was Nebraska. We’re not for everybody. And the mission, when the thing was like, we have a lot to offer. You want to come, you know, experience heartland, you know, Midwestern values.

We’re here for you. But if you don’t like it, it could not be for you. It may not be for you. So to the to the humility, speaking of to the humility of the heartland, but do you get the sense that if we were a bit more. Boisterous braggadocious, it would help small towns in any way?

Nicholas Lalla 26:46

Yeah, I guess, I guess two, two additional thoughts, which is one. I’ve been to a lot of cities, been to a bunch of cities on this book tour, talked to city leaders without fail almost every single week. And I’m living in a city now that is known for Pride in community. But I’ve and I’m from New Orleans, which takes civic pride to a whole other level. But and I mean this sincerely, which is that if I’m ranking civic pride levels in every city that I’ve ever been to.

New Orleans is number one. Tulsa’s number two, Tulsa’s number two, and New York is number three. And then Chicago’s probably number four. But the amount of civic pride that Tulsans have for their community is is palpable. It’s in your face.

You feel the energy when you’re walking around town, you feel it in stakeholder conversations. And so at the same time, there’s humility, there’s jadedness, there’s maybe an inferiority complex, but there’s also deep love and commitment to their community. And I assume that that spirit imbues other heartland cities that I just haven’t been to. Right. But I do think that there is something special about Tolson’s connection to place and to each other that I find deeply admirable and touching, honestly.

That said, I don’t think I think Tulsa has done a really good job of like. Kind of organically generating press. I think the work that experienced Tulsa is doing. I think the the work, the kind of creative work happening on social media through online content, video content, I think is working. I think obviously Tulsa Remote helped the city get into kind of the national zeitgeist Christ a few years back, but what I and what I pushed for when I was leading Tulsa Innovation Labs was a regional and national campaign that promoted Tulsa in a more aggressive, creative and strategic way that I still don’t think even in my book is one.

I think small part of, you know, this, this broader and longer term apparatus. But I don’t think that Tulsa has shared its story as widely and as clearly as it needs to. And I think that there is a ton of value in doing so. Sourcing talent investors right, helping position the city for to be more competitive for corporate attraction pursuits, establishing a clear, more compelling, more positive brand for the city. I mean, one of the things that I used to say in the early days was like, for most of America, Tulsa is a blank slate, right?

You don’t. And like, I’m from New Orleans, when I first heard about Tulsa, I was like, I know it’s in Oklahoma, but that’s it. Yeah. And that’s a real opportunity, right? Because you take I mean, and this is kind of cheeky, but like you take a city like Buffalo, New York.

The only thing I know about Buffalo is that they lost four straight Super Bowls. And there’s a lot of snow. Not particularly positive. And there’s a ton of really cool stuff happening in Buffalo. I just didn’t know about it at the time.

Right. But I do still think that, like the vast majority of Americans don’t know jack about Tulsa. And if you don’t have a multimedia campaign sharing that story more broadly, people just aren’t going to know about it, right? Yeah. I still and I still I still think that that’s a missed opportunity for the city.

I think that there needs to be I think Tulsa kind of needs to be. More ambitious. More creative. More. More boisterous about the success that it’s had in recent years as a way to continue to draw talent and and investors.

Mat Zalk 31:25

Is.

Nicholas Lalla 31:27

You.

Mat Zalk 31:28

Talk a little bit about the inferiority, the inferiority complex. I wonder if some of that comes from a feeling that innovation, and maybe more particularly the funding that’s required to scale innovative ideas, is a zero sum game. And that in some way, the the friendly competition between heartland cities and New York slash San Francisco for the sake of of of our argument today is analogous or akin to the Canada US relationship, where the US, if you ask, you know the average American about Canada, where you haven’t thought too much about it, and yet Canada is kind of always thinking about the US in in one, one shape or form. Is that is there a nature of innovation or is there a part of innovation that is zero sum? Or is there enough to go around and the capital will flow where the ideas go or start or percolate and the San Francisco have something to lose if we gain?

Nicholas Lalla 32:39

I think it’s both. I think there are obviously, you know, particular opportunities, segments, scenarios that that are zero sum. But more I think more importantly, I do think that the that the pie is big enough for everybody. Yeah. And more importantly, I think that’s why communities need to build their own innovation economies.

Right. San Francisco doesn’t have the global headquarters of Williams, right. San Francisco doesn’t have the critical infrastructure and oil and gas that Tulsa does. Tulsa doesn’t have Stanford or Berkeley.

Mat Zalk 33:27

Yeah.

Nicholas Lalla 33:28

Right. But Tulsa has assets that San Francisco doesn’t have. And they need to invest in them and leverage them and link them with other investments that catalyze growth and innovation. That’s that’s the proposition, right? That’s the name of the game.

And so if I were a Tulsa civic leader, I wouldn’t spend hardly any time thinking about what San Francisco is doing or even what Austin’s doing. I wouldn’t fall into the trap of becoming obsessed with corporate attraction. Right. And chasing the latest cyber plant or whatever.

Mat Zalk 34:06

Interesting.

Nicholas Lalla 34:08

I’d spend my time at the University of Tulsa. I’d spend my time at Tulsa Community College. I’d spend my time at the 10 or 20 largest employers in the region. Right. And figure out what their needs are.

And invest in those local institutions and create entrepreneurial and innovation and workforce ecosystems that are responsive to industry needs, that are widening opportunities that are serving the community. Absolutely. You do that for ten years. You’ll have a growing innovation economy.

Mat Zalk 34:40

Yeah. And I mean, I think the genius of of the genius in the simplicity or the genius is in the simplicity of of this Tulsa’s tech niche and saying, we already have the, MRO capability for American Airlines. It’s much easier to keep them here and have them double down on on workforce because we have the educational outcomes that they need. The specifics in terms of I wouldn’t even know, deliverable, like what can we get to and from, etc..

Nicholas Lalla 35:15

You just can’t you can’t be something you’re not. Yeah. And you need to be proud of who you are. And you can be proud of who you are and recognize deficiencies. Right.

But you can’t be something that you’re not. And so it’s a fallacy to think you’re just going to build an innovation economy out of thin air based on nothing. Like it’s just not. Like it’s just not going to happen. But like, what’s crazy is, like, there are cities out there that think that they’re going to, like, enter the quantum space with having no existing assets in or related to quantum.

Yeah. It just doesn’t make any sense. So like just. I mean, it’s, you know, it is super, super simple. Yeah.

It’s it’s this is not rocket science, but, like, you’d be surprised how hard and controversial it is to get people, even people who live in cities to, like, want to make big investments in their own communities. Yeah, it’s really hard. And it has a whole pathology and psychology around why they don’t want to or what they want to spend money on and, and all of that good stuff.

Mat Zalk 36:23

We’re grateful. We’re grateful for the George Kaiser Family Foundation being here and devoting their resources to it.

Nicholas Lalla 36:28

Yeah. And, you know, a lot of people, you know, I say this on the talking circuit a bunch, like a lot of people think gcaf is an anomaly. It’s not an anomaly. There are well-resourced philanthropies in almost every single mid-sized city in the heartland.

Mat Zalk 36:40

Tell me. Tell me what you know about Wichita.

Nicholas Lalla 36:43

Well, there you go.

Mat Zalk 36:45

You know, have they done have has have the Koch brothers done much for for Wichita?

Nicholas Lalla 36:49

I don’t know about I don’t know too much about Wichita other than kind of the strong aerospace and university R&D that’s going on there. But where I do, you know, where I do think it’s relatively novel and would encourage continued investment around Gcaf is in economic development and in tech and innovation. Yeah. You don’t see a lot of place based philanthropies taking quite the same approach that Gcaf is. And I think I think Gcaf has been on the vanguard of this, certainly dating back to when they funded Tulsa Innovation Lab.

So but and I was also talking to another urbanist, particularly in the context of severe cuts at the federal level and where capital is going to come from to fund economic development, like capital exists. Right? There’s people with money in this country. The the challenge has always been communicating a vision, organizing capital and deploying it in strategic and impactful ways like the money is there and in particular, the money is there in Tulsa. Yeah, Tulsa has, you know what, eight, $9 billion in philanthropic capital alone?

Yeah. Throw in oil and gas, fortune 500. There’s more than enough money to fund economic development in Tulsa for the next hundred years.

Mat Zalk 38:11

Yeah. Nick, you’ve you’ve done your fair share in pursuit of the reimagining of of our economic future and with with that reimagination has come or maybe in parallel, in tandem. I don’t know what the the causal relationship is. Remote workers, additional tech talent, some startups greater startup ecosystem. All this puts pressure on housing, which is where we come into the picture.

Yeah. And I’ve heard people say things like they’re paying people to $10,000 to move to Tulsa. They need to pay me to stay because my rent has gone up. And and you know, the cost of living has gone up. And I think it’s still reasonable.

Vis a vis other cities, especially coastal cities. But what’s your thought on on how Tulsa can balance innovation and all of the, I guess, inflationary pressures that come with them. And on the other hand, affordability.

Nicholas Lalla 39:15

Yeah. I guess, you know, first on first, a comment about remote work, which I think I’ve my thinking on remote work and Tulsa remote in particular has kind of evolved and continues to be evolving. I initially thought it was a gimmick and sounded I thought this sounded stupid. Why? Why, you know, why would anybody?

You spend, you know, take $10,000 to just up and move to a brand new city. But they actually do. I was skeptical of the value prop from an economic development perspective until looking at the data and know Tulsa Remote’s adding significant value to the local ecosystem. Two challenges on on the remote work front. One is that I think remote work is bad for innovation.

As an employer, I think you need people in person as often as possible to innovate, to create new ideas, to create new companies. I think it is exacerbating a loneliness epidemic in the United States. For me, when I was an employer and managed people, it was never about remote work. It was about flexibility. Right?

Like, I don’t really care when you’re in the office, with some exceptions, but I want you in the office enough to build rapport to build good relationships, to get the work that you need to get done, which is often required to to be in person to do. I think where Tulsa has done a really good job is in recognizing that promoters themselves don’t want to be working by themselves in their basements, they want to be with other people. And so the premium that they place on community building, I think is really important and powerful, which has made them really successful. Probably the best gold standard, gold standard remote work incentive program on the planet. But I think in general, and I think that’s why you see the backlash to remote work, a lot of companies requiring folks to to go back into the office.

I think that’s a good, healthy thing, particularly from a real estate and and density standpoint. You have cities like, you know, parts like Midtown Manhattan, downtown Washington DC, downtown Los Angeles, etc. hit really hard by remote work. People aren’t commuting, they’re not going out to lunch, they’re not going to bars. They’re not doing happy hours. That hurts.

Small businesses. Heart hurts, you know, drives up vacancy rates and then you just have compounding effects. So, you know, is remote work really good? No, no, no, I would encourage flexibility. But I think people need to be together in places.

Sure. You’re right. And another thing is like there’s and I call this out in the book, there’s a tension between paying outsiders $10,000 to come to Tulsa and not giving a commensurate amount to locals to upskill or to, you know, upgrade their home or whatever, or send their kid to college. Right. I think those types of investments need to be met with defined investments for existing communities, which is why Pulse Innovation Labs puts a premium on investing in local capacity.

Right? That’s why we partner with the University of Tulsa, with Tulsa Community College, etc.. I think the other issue that you called out, which I think is right, is and curious to hear if you’re already starting to see data that bears this out. But as you invest in innovation economies, there are side effects, right? Increased cost of living, namely and serious strains on housing.

That’s what you see in Austin. It’s what you see in San Francisco to dramatic effect. And so what I think obviously needs to happen is one. Economic development, tech led economic development needs to be as inclusive as possible. I think Tulsa Innovation Labs is doing a pretty good job of designing initiatives that expand opportunity.

So it’s not just folks that look like me and you that are getting tech jobs, but through initiatives like the Cyber Skill Center Tulsa Community College, you can upskilled into a cyber data analytics job. Tuition free. Through partner organizations like Black Tech Street, revitalizing the Greenwood District. All of that I think is is super, super, super important. At the same time, public policy needs to develop in parallel to the economic development work that’s being driven largely by philanthropy, which means increasing affordable housing, making sure that it’s cheap, it’s relatively pain free from a regulatory perspective to build new affordable housing in Tulsa.

That is that’s going to be super important. And I don’t know of a single city in the country that doesn’t need more affordable housing for folks. And I’m assuming and I think early data that I saw just from a couple years ago shows, you know, rents in Tulsa are increasing.

Mat Zalk 44:25

Yeah.

Nicholas Lalla 44:25

And and beyond inflation.

Mat Zalk 44:28

I get the sense that the only thing we can do is continue to develop, in a sense, having more humans here with more disposable income because they are upskilled and included in a in in a forward looking economy. We have more developers like Tim Yardi, who came in front of the Planning Commission yesterday to build to to get approval to build 136 units. We’ll get more development. We’ll get more people in those houses. There are other people that will step up into where that resident just left, and kind of everybody gets pushed up.

But there’s always there’s always a local community that says, I don’t want a class A multifamily in my community. Put it somewhere else. And we just don’t have that luxury in Tulsa. We, we, we’re developing everywhere and we’re trying to infill. We’re trying to kind of create the opportunity for infill development everywhere so that we can have more housing and more people have access to everything.

Nicholas Lalla 45:19

But yeah, I think I think it’s an all above and all of the above. Approach, but. Yeah, I mean, I’m in Manhattan where rents are historically obscene and just getting crazier by the day. And. Yeah, I mean, we we don’t have, like, the real estate footprint that, that Tulsa does or the available land necessarily.

But it’s it’s a crisis across across the country. And what I would encourage both the philanthropic community and public leaders is to act boldly and aggressively and anticipate continued economic growth for Tulsa over the next several years, which are just going to exacerbate the problem. So they need to get a handle on it ASAP. Incidentally, I consulted on a project for Smart Growth America and the City of Tulsa on an affordable housing study that folks should check out. It’s available online.

Mat Zalk 46:22

And that is that the study that indicates that we need 12,000 more housing units in the next ten years.

Nicholas Lalla 46:29

Yeah, I forget the exact figure, but it recommends new new affordable housing units and offers a slew of policy and business process improvement recommendations to make the whole process more streamlined and efficient.

Mat Zalk 46:46

Yeah. Any thoughts? I know it’s not your domain of expertise necessarily, although you have many. Our our average client is a, a person a couple whatever that own 1 or 2 properties. Any advice that you’d give someone like that investing in cities like Tulsa in the heartland that are evolving quickly in pursuit of, you know, broader real estate ownership and with the intention of renting it out.

Nicholas Lalla 47:13

Yeah, I would just say, you know, look, I’m I’m super bullish on Tulsa’s future. I think that the city is transforming before Folks’s eyes. I think you’ve they’ve made tremendous progress over the past five years and the city is on a really positive trajectory. So I think investing in in Tulsa is a pretty safe bet.

Mat Zalk 47:38

Love that.

Nicholas Lalla 47:39

And I think more broadly, I think the message not just to folks looking to buy real estate or a home. Is that there’s a ton of business opportunities in heartland cities that if you’re from San Francisco or New York, you might not necessarily immediately think of. But if you do, just a little bit of homework, and if you hop on one plane and go visit, you’ll realize that there’s real opportunities to make money in a place like Tulsa. Just because you don’t know about it off the top of your head doesn’t mean that they don’t exist. And so if you’re looking for new opportunities, if you’re a VC looking for new startups to invest in, think outside your little coastal bubble.

Mat Zalk 48:23

I appreciate your perspective. Today’s guest is Nicholas Lalla, Co-founder of Tulsa Innovation Labs and author of Reinventing the Heartland. Civic entrepreneur and urban strategist Nick has helped shape tech driven, inclusive growth in midsize cities, bridging innovation, economic development, and community impact. His work has mobilized over 200 million in investments in Tulsa as a national model for how cities can reinvent themselves in the digital age. Read Nick’s new book, Reinventing the Heartland for a practical blueprint on how cities and the people who live in them can thrive in a tech driven economy.

Reinventing the Heartland is available on Amazon and anywhere books are sold. Nick, we appreciate you so much. NicholasLalla.com. NicholasLalla.com for more information on Nick, what he’s doing, what he’s working on. Nick, we appreciate you being on the show.

It’s been fun.

Nicholas Lalla 49:12

Thanks for having me.

Mat Zalk 49:13

Take care.

Outro 49:17

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