In this episode of The Same Day Podcast, host Yoni Schmidt sits down with Monica Gilroy, Managing and Founding Member at The Gilroy Firm, to discuss how property managers should handle ICE requests while protecting tenant privacy. They explore the risks of complying with administrative subpoenas, strategies for training teams on fair housing compliance, and why strong contracts and documents shield managers from liability.
How Property Managers Should Handle ICE Requests and Protect Tenant Privacy With Monica Gilroy
Monica Gilroy is the Managing and Founding Member at The Gilroy Firm, a national real estate litigation and property management law firm. She has over 30 years of experience in real estate litigation, title insurance defense, foreclosure, bankruptcy, and fair housing matters. Monica is a Georgia Super Lawyer, a National Title Professional, and a frequent speaker at state and national industry conferences. She has also chaired the State Bar of Georgia’s Real Property Law Section and serves on national committees for the American Land Title Association.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- [2:48] Monica Gilroy explains the difference between an ICE administrative subpoena and a judicial warrant
- [5:38] Risks for property managers who comply with ICE subpoenas without a court order
- [10:27] How property managers should respond when ICE shows up at their office
- [15:21] Preparing teams with fair housing training and privacy safeguards
- [26:33] Why strong property management agreements and documents protect against liability
In this episode…
When federal agents arrive at a property manager’s office with urgent requests, the pressure can feel overwhelming. Do you comply immediately, or do you pause to protect tenant rights and your company from liability? And how do you balance the seriousness of law enforcement with your legal responsibilities?
According to Monica Gilroy, a nationally recognized real estate attorney and legal educator, property managers are not required to comply with ICE administrative subpoenas unless a judge signs off. She highlights that blindly handing over tenant files can create significant risks under fair housing laws and state privacy regulations. The effect is clear: acting too quickly can expose both companies and individuals to lawsuits, reputational damage, and financial loss. Monica explains that property managers must stay calm, ask whether a warrant is judicial, and always consult legal counsel before responding. She also stresses the importance of ongoing training so that every team member knows how to handle these high-stakes scenarios.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Yonatan Schmidt on LinkedIn
- Mat Zalk on LinkedIn
- Keyrenter Property Management
- Keyrenter Property Management in Tulsa | Oklahoma City | Arkansas
- Keyrenter Property Management email address: [email protected]
- Monica Gilroy: LinkedIn | Email
- The Gilroy Firm
- “Exploring New Possibilities in Entrepreneurship” on The Same Day Podcast
- “Revitalizing Communities Through Multi-Concept Restaurant Development” with Elliot Nelson on The Same Day Podcast
- “The Future of Financial Advising: Building Relationships Over Returns” with Morgan Martin on The Same Day Podcast
- National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM)
- U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
Quotable Moments
- “It is not issued by a court, by a judge. It is simply, in essence, a request by ICE for information.”
- “The dangers of just voluntarily complying with the ICE administrative subpoena, just right off the knock on your door, is that you are getting into fair housing.”
- “Take a breath, take a breath, take a breath, take a breath. Think about it for a minute.”
- “It is never a bad idea to have a fair housing moment every single month.”
- “Your documents, your property management agreement, your lease, your policies and procedures are critical.”
Action Steps
- Train staff regularly on fair housing compliance: Frequent refreshers ensure every employee understands protected classes and avoids discriminatory practices.
- Establish a clear response plan for ICE encounters: Having a step-by-step protocol reduces panic, protects tenant privacy, and minimizes legal exposure.
- Consult legal counsel before releasing tenant information: Professional guidance prevents missteps that could lead to lawsuits, fines, or reputational harm.
- Strengthen property management agreements and policies: Well-drafted documents define responsibilities, limit liability, and safeguard both managers and owners.
- Share current legal and industry updates with teams: Connecting daily work to evolving regulations empowers staff to make informed decisions under pressure.
Sponsor for this episode…
Keyrenter Property Management:
This episode is brought to you by Keyrenter Property Management.
Keyrenter Property Management is a full-service property management company that helps clients buy, renovate, and operate real estate assets.
The team helps clients build wealth while taking the headache out of property management.
That’s why, no matter what rental you have — single-family homes, condos, townhomes, or apartments — they can give you the management solutions you need.
To learn more about their services, go to https://keyrenterpmc.com/ or send them an email at [email protected].
Episode Transcript
Intro 00:04
Welcome to The Same Day Podcast, where we discuss driving incremental business growth and other topics related to real estate, property management and entrepreneurship. Now to the show at hand.
Yoni Schmidt 00:20
Hi there. Yoni Schmidt here, hosting today’s episode of The Same Day Podcast where I connect with top business and real estate leaders. Past guests include Chip Gaberino, a local restaurateur entrepreneur, Elliot Nelson, the CEO of the McNellie’s Group, Morgan Martin of Merrill Lynch, and many, many other interesting people. Today’s episode is brought to you by Keyrenter Property Management. At Keyrenter Property Management, we are a full service property management company helping our clients buy, renovate and operate real estate assets. We help our clients build wealth while taking the headache out of property management.
That is why no matter what rental you have a single family home, a condo, a townhouse or an apartment, we have the management solutions for you. Go to keyrenterpmc.com or email us at [email protected]. Today I’m excited to welcome Monica Gilroy, a nationally recognized real estate attorney and managing partner of The Gilroy Firm based in Atlanta. With a legal career spanning over three decades. She’s a subject matter expert in the property management and property management law, fair housing, and real estate litigation.
Monica serves as general counsel of the Atlanta chapter of NARPM and is a highly sought after speaker, educator, and advisor to property managers nationwide. Her passion lies in empowering professionals to navigate complex legal issues with clarity, integrity and confidence. Welcome to the show and thank you for being here.
Monica Gilroy 01:42
Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.
Yoni Schmidt 01:44
Monica, you are a powerhouse because I literally read your article maybe 3 or 4 days ago, the same second I read it, I emailed you within. I don’t even know how long hours you like responded. And we got this podcast recorded. So Thank you so much for working at the speed that I’m used to. And so the article that I’m mentioning is the single family residential property managers and Ice, a PMS perspective, which we actually shared with the entire with our entire business, 100 and somewhat employees, because we understand that, you know, at a certain point in time, there may be interaction between our property managers or senior property managers and, you know, employees within the business.
Current PMC and Ice agents. And so let’s start with the basics, I guess. Can you explain a little bit, maybe about the difference between an Ice administrative subpoena and a judicial warrant and why the distinction is so important for property managers specifically?
Monica Gilroy 02:48
Yeah, absolutely. You know, with the with the increase in in Ice enforcement across the country, you know, there’s a lot of misunderstanding as to exactly what what Ice is and can I do? Of course. Ice, of course, is Immigration and Customs Enforcement. You know, in certain areas of the country, much very, very active.
And the concept is, is that Ice is empowered under there for, so to speak, charter, to be able to obviously find individuals who who are deemed under the law to be dangerous and here illegally. But what we’re seeing happening in certain sectors, and especially the rental sector, is we could see ice coming in with with what is just simply called an administrative subpoena. It’s almost like just a list of information that an Ice officer may come in and ask for. Usually it’s things like, you know, addresses information about your specific tenants, perhaps your onboarding file, what you had, things like that. But the thing that’s important to remember about an administrative subpoena, and maybe that’s sort of the the way to think of it, is administrative.
It is not issued by a court, by a judge. It is simply, in essence, a request by Ice for information. And so because of that, that’s why. And we can discuss this in more detail. You have to be more cautious about your compliance, how you comply or if you comply at all now versus what would be called a judicial warrant.
That’s going to be something that’s signed by a judge. And that can come in a variety of forms. It can come in the form of sort of the warrants, warrants we think of, you know, like in movies and TV, you know, do you have a warrant to enter this property? But that’s exactly what we’re talking about. It’d be something that would be signed by a judge that someone or some entity or organization has gotten a judge to sign off on either the entering of a premises or to request information, or it could be done even in a civil context, right, of, you know, it’s not so much a criminal warrant, but it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a subpoena signed by a judge saying this is the information we need.
And obviously that is very different because that is a court of law commanding you to do something and because you are being commanded by a court of law, Your liability as a property manager goes way down, right? As opposed to these administrative subpoenas that are not quite strong enough to actually mandate force you to turn over this information.
Yoni Schmidt 05:13
Yeah, that’s very interesting. So which leads me to my next question. In your article, you stress that compliance and you mentioned compliance with administrative warrants is optional unless ordered by a court. Right. What is the biggest risk for property managers who do actually comply with these subpoenas or administrative administrative subpoenas?
Monica Gilroy 05:38
Exactly. No, that is a great question. And that’s and that’s where, you know, it gets really dicey because we start getting into our fair housing field. And, you know, depending on what state you’re in, like we were talking earlier about the states your key runner folks are in, you know, those are states that could be heavily targeted by by Ice officials. So yeah, there is nothing that requires you to just stop, drop and do what you’re doing and turn everything over to an ice official.
It is. It is something that if you said to them, oh, I don’t feel comfortable doing this, or I want to speak to my own attorney, they might turn and leave in a huff, but there’s nothing they can do. You cannot be thrown in jail. You cannot be penalized. And they can ice can go back to a judge, come back with a warrant.
But then there’s even a process for you as a PM to decide, okay, am I going to push back on this? What should I do? It is not like even if Ice comes back with something signed by a judge, that you automatically have to then comply. I’ve always advised that you should first of all, even at the first instance of ice at your door, you should always reach out to your own local attorney if you have one, or at least you know someone that you trust within the industry to just get advice. The dangers of just voluntarily complying with the Ice administrative subpoena, just right off the knock on your door, is that you are getting into fair housing.
Obviously, fair housing protects country of origin, right? It protects color, protects race, color, meaning color of your skin. And if we suddenly start just turning over information willy nilly or saying, here’s this, here’s that. It could lead to a fair housing claim down the road by the person that you’re providing that information to. Secondarily, you are turning over highly sensitive information.
If you are being asked for bank account information, if you are being asked for anything else from onboarding that would contain something that’s, you know, that’s that’s private towards individual. Every state in the United States has privacy laws, has privacy concerns. You can’t disseminate private information, banking information about others just without doing anything. So it just opens up a really dangerous Pandora’s box of liability for you all based upon, in essence, a document that isn’t really even enforceable on its face. It requires more.
Yoni Schmidt 07:54
Interesting. So as as property managers and I know you work nationwide, but you’re based in Atlanta, also has property managers in Oklahoma and Arkansas and Wichita and Missouri and Kansas. Right. There’s a certain level of responsibility that we have when we are holding all of this confidential information. If we hand it over to an Ice agent, there then becomes certain level of liability, potential liability that, you know, we may then be sued because we provided, you know, private information that wasn’t supposed to be handed over without a judge’s order.
Monica Gilroy 08:29
Exactly. Because you have to think of it like, what if that Ice request is wrong, right? What if there is a belief that this person, you know, falls into the category of Ice enforcement, but yet it turns out they don’t. Right. Right.
And you then become, as a company, a target for both that individual who potentially has problems with Ice or is improperly detained or whatever, but also their family. Think about that for a minute? What if they’re targeting the father, right, of a family of four who lived there, and you turn over everybody’s information and the wife? I mean, that’s a huge problem. The wife is not subject to an investigation.
You’ve just literally handed over to an essence like a complete stranger, somebody’s private information, which, if we think about it logically, if if I was a stranger and I knocked on the door and I said, give me your file on John Smith, you wouldn’t do that. You know, you’d be like, no. Why? Show me a subpoena from a court. Show me this.
So that’s sort of how we have to think about it. Now, that being said, though, we are not ever to be obviously disrespectful to Ice. We are to take this seriously. But we do have the ability to say no. I know that you have to have an actual, you know, signed warrant from a judge before we move forward.
And again, even then, if the the scope of the request by Ice has to be narrow enough. Right. It can’t it can’t be just like, give me everything you need. It needs to be more specific, right? So if there wasn’t specificity, you can go ahead and ask for that to be broken out.
When you’re in front of a judge dealing with a nice administrative subpoena to get more clarity to further protect you. So you’re not just turning over too much.
Yoni Schmidt 10:10
Yeah. Love that. You just answered my next question, which was, how should a property manager respond in the moment that an Ice agent shows up at the, you know, their office with an administrative an administrative subpoena or a warrant?
Monica Gilroy 10:27
Take a breath, take a breath, take a breath, take a breath. Think about it for a minute. Explain to them that, you know, I would say thank you. I but I need to consult with my own attorney on this. You have every right to say that again.
You will not be you will not be in trouble if there is obviously any type of, you know, suggestion of, you know, coercion or this is, you know, this is, you know, you have to do this. No, that’s not what the law says. You have a right to take a breath. So I would say take a breath and then, you know, and then again, it’s very important. And this is true really, of any subpoena in general if you got one, even in the context of a court hearing, you know, just only give what is requested of you.
That really limits your liability. Don’t give over too much.
Yoni Schmidt 11:15
Yeah. Well, so taking a breath is very important. And hopefully they read your article and they listened to this podcast before. You know, the agents, you know, showed up at their door. But for property managers who are trying to do the right thing under pressure because there’s a lot of pressure, if, you know, Ice agents show up at your door, you know, you don’t know how they’re going to show up.
They could show up in force. They can show up, you know, in in masses. What’s your best advice on balancing tenant privacy with, you know, law enforcement requests and also respecting law enforcement?
Monica Gilroy 11:50
Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, I think I think always and this is true of anything we do in our profession. But, you know, whenever we’re dealing with any sort of legal situation or quasi legal situation and we should always just be as professional as possible, we should never get upset. Right. I think if it’s if, if, if ice is being persistent, I do think you just have to garner everything you can from within and say, I have got to take a minute.
I need to consult with, you know, my advisor, my legal counsel. You know, they if they, you know, ask them politely to give you even 48 hours to do all of this because just thinking about it, I think will hopefully, you know, have it be something that then can get you to let you have a little bit more control. Right, okay. What am I going to do? You also can simply you can also ask flat out, you know, you know okay, I understand that you’re here.
Is is this a judicial warrant. Is this signed by a judge? Because if it is, that’s how really the introduction should start. Right. The knock on the door, you know we’re here.
This is signed by Judge Smith of the, you know, of the District Court of Kansas, you know, then, okay, that’s a very different situation, right? But even then, even when you’re sent a subpoena from a from a judge, right, in a civil or criminal context, you always have time to gather your things and comply. It is I don’t I haven’t heard from anyone yet in the industry that there’s been a situation where ice has come to the door and like, just stood there and said, give me everything now, right? Asking for time is completely appropriate, especially when it’s not a judicial warrant. But even in the context of something that’s judicial, you’re always given time to gather everything.
Because what again, you want to do as a PM is you don’t want to over give, right? If the warrant says I want there there, you know, their banking account information, but it doesn’t ask for their employment history or vice versa. It wants their employment history, but not their banking information. Don’t turn over too much. Don’t turn over that banking information.
Because again, that’s where the private things the invasion of privacy and the dissemination of private information can really get you into trouble. So, you know, it can be a little intimidating, but I think just just asking for that time, but also just saying, you know, is this a warrant? You know, think about it almost like when you get pulled over by a policeman for speeding ticket, right? When you pull up, we get pulled over for a speeding ticket. You know, you’re supposed to sit there with your hands calmly on the wheel.
You don’t go, oh, I’m so sorry. What did I do? You’re very polite. You’re very businesslike. But you can certainly say, you know, how fast was I going, officer?
Right. That’s like asking. Is this signed by a judge? You know, so sort of think about it like that. Like how would you react to other interactions with, you know, forms of law enforcement?
Because most people haven’t had that, except for things like traffic tickets, you know, or things like that. So but that would be my advice is just to really, you know, don’t hesitate to push back, ask for the time. And then again, it helps you even even 48 hours would help you to get some advice, right, even if it’s just from your local chapter leaders to say, hey, what’s going on? Or from a lawyer or anything like that?
Yoni Schmidt 14:59
Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you for clarifying that. I mentioned earlier, you know, we shared this. We shared your article with our entire staff, you know, for training.
From your perspective, what are the most critical steps that every property management company should take to prepare their teams for handling these scenarios?
Monica Gilroy 15:21
That’s a great question. I would say two things. It is never a bad idea to have a fair housing moment every single month. Fair. You know, I teach and speak frequently on fair housing across the country.
And even when I do this to groups that I know have had the education, people will come up and say, I learned something new today. So your staff and when I say your staff, I am talking about from the tippy top staff to the very lowest person you have working in your company in terms of seniority, but especially your onboarding people. They have got to know fair housing inside and out. They’ve got to understand, especially in this arena, what race means, right. What does the protected class of race, what color means?
Color is one of those issues under fair housing that people get really confused about, but it’s making an assumption based upon the color of their someone’s skin, right? It’s looking at them and saying, oh, they must be from this country because of the color of their skin, right? And then, of course, national origin, the country from which you came. That’s really at the heart, right, of what we’re talking about with an Ice investigation, is that they’re targeting people based upon those three things, right? Race, color and national origin, because obviously they’re believing that they’re not here legally in the country.
So if we can understand why our job is PMS is to be sure we’re following fair housing. That’s the number one thing, right? Because that gives a bigger perspective, I think, as to why we’re able to say, no, wait a minute. You know, let’s let’s be careful about this. And then secondarily, you know, just like an article like mine or anything else, that’s a current event, right?
Just be sure even once a week you let your staff, even if it’s just a blast, you know, you should be reading the news yourself, right? If there’s something out there that that you know is national in scope or or if it’s in your state or something happens, share with them the current event trends. Help them connect the dots between our current legal and political environment. Right, and what is going on in their jobs every day. It really helps bring context to it.
And that was sort of the hope about this, about this article is that, you know, we we had enough inquiries from folks saying, you know, I’m not quite sure about the differences in these subpoenas and what do I do? And, you know, it makes a difference to just, yeah, sharing information like this, but really always going back to the foundation of fair housing, to be sure, everyone understands that at the heart of this, that’s where the real liability lies. That and giving out private information. And honestly, you know, even a third thing would be reminding them about private information that, you know, just like we tell our elderly parents, don’t give your credit card number over the phone. That’s the same concept, right?
You’re not giving out voluntarily private information about others and being sure the staff understands not just why they shouldn’t do it, but you know the why, right? Why are we not doing this? We cannot. We are safeguarding private information and we expose our company. We maybe even expose our owners, depending on the nature of the relationship, right to liability.
And we don’t want to have that happen.
Yoni Schmidt 18:31
Could a PM on the personal level be exposed to liability?
Monica Gilroy 18:34
Well, that’s you know, that’s the thing is that nowadays I see fair housing claims, I see lawsuits that name the PMS by name, right, that they interact with Betty Smith. And guess who’s named in the claim. Right. It’s Betty Smith now usually the you know, usually in my experience, the companies that when they are named will take care of their staff, you know. But at the same token, do you really want personally to have the stress of being named in some sort of lawsuit or fair housing complaint?
You know, it’s it, although your liability would not most likely be individual people all the time. You know, people do whatever they want to do when they get mad, they name anybody and everybody. And so you don’t ever want to see your name on a piece of paper like that.
Yoni Schmidt 19:14
Yeah, I would imagine. Let’s talk about how how this topic intersects with like local, state, you know, local or state level laws that may protect immigration or citizenship status. Right. What should property managers, you know, do? Should they assume the strictest standard applies?
Monica Gilroy 19:36
Yes, I would say yes. I would say so. Like if for and I will say it’s not. There are only a handful of states and jurisdictions that would have kind of an interactive, you know, law or regulation that deals with what we’re talking about today. Most states are going to be dealing just with the federal, you know, law.
They’re not going to be seeing interaction from an Ice equivalent, right, on a local level. But yes, you should kind of the same rules apply, right? Take a moment. Take a breath. What you might find, though more likely on the local or state level, is you might find something actually signed by a judge.
Right. There may be a little more oversight, right? That if some some authoritative body wants this information, unlike Ice on the national level, that may come in with the administrative subpoena, someone nationally might come right out of the box with something that we would consider to be valid, enforceable. Right? It would be, you know, again, something that could be civil, issued by someone civilly or even on a criminal context, because, again, seeing that signature by the judge, it really that is a that is a different reaction.
Right. That is, that is meaning you they’ve already been to a judge. Now, that being said, there are still things that can be done by a property manager. If they feel that there is maybe too broad of a scope, right? You you you should never ignore, never, ever ignore a subpoena signed by a court.
That is a very serious document. That is something that’s summoning you, right? Subpoena is a Latin word for summoning, right to bring you in. Right to obtain information. So it is it is it is still an order of the court to you.
Now, if there are questions and you need clarity, you’re able to go back to the court and ask for that. But that would be my thought is that we might see on the local level, actually, you know, a little bit more of the formality of having something signed by a judge. And let me add this. When something’s when you have a judicial subpoena, right. Something signed by a judge, your liability is a PM is pretty much absolved.
Right? You are clean because you are being ordered by a court not to do it. There are not to get too legal, but there are mechanisms, right, that people who are the subject of a subpoena can they’re called quashing. Stopping. Right.
Stopping subpoenas. Right. But you are at that point you as the PM, you’re just sort of over here. You know, you’re just sort of the bystander who has the information, right? And if if there’s nobody saying no PM, don’t give it.
You can give it without the fear of the liability. Saying that I was subpoenaed really prevents like a like provides like a shield almost of liability to you because you were being compelled by a court. Because if you don’t do what the court told you to do, then you’re going to get in trouble with the court. You’re held in contempt. And again, that’s like like we think of movies and TVs, you know, I hold you in contempt, you know, that’s that’s exactly what that means.
It means that you haven’t followed a order, direct order from a court. So you know, it, it it makes sense to, to think of it that way. But I do know that there are certain places in the country where, yes, you’re going to want to defer to what your local level is. Right. because that would potentially override what could be happening federally.
Yoni Schmidt 22:58
Interesting.
Monica Gilroy 22:58
That’s a great question.
Yoni Schmidt 23:01
Thank you. Do you see trends or increasing legal exposure for property managers as immigration enforcement becomes more visible? What should PMS be watching for throughout the rest of the year and into 2026?
Monica Gilroy 23:15
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s, you know, it’s hard to know these days because there’s so much, you know, I was I was looking at some of the other day about, you know, the criticism in, for example, Washington DC, where the individuals are wearing masks, face coverings and they’re not able to identify themselves because of their own fear of safety. But yet that poses a whole nother sort of wrinkle in this. Is that what if someone showed up in a mask to your PM door and didn’t have any ID? You know, you’ve got to just be able, I think, to be on top of what’s happening in the news and top of the trends. I think assume for now Ice is here to stay and Ice enforcements will continue.
I think that, you know, the, the frequency of and the nature of it are going to be very much geographically based. Where are you located? Where are you practicing? It might be very different for someone in, you know, the Midwest as it might be for someone in the southwest. But I think that we’re going to have to assume that this is going to continue.
And so staying abreast of the topic, feeling comfortable with what to do in the process is, is really important. And the other thing I would say too is, you know, you’ve got to be careful as a PM about not giving legal advice to your tenant. So if the tenant comes to you and says, oh my goodness, or if you tell the tenant, okay, Ice came today because that’s what you should do. If ice comes and you turn them away, be sure the tenant is aware. Don’t keep that secret, friends.
Keep you. Tell the tenant hey, they were here, right? And the tenant says, oh my goodness, you know, Miss Pam, what am I supposed to do? That is not where we give any legal advice. We want to be able to say, I cannot provide legal advice.
Here is there’s every city in America has a legal aid, a volunteer lawyer, foundation. There are groups that are set up, many, many groups that that are there to help those who are the, the, the focus by an Ice investigation. That’s where you should direct them. Right. And don’t make any promises.
Don’t say, oh, I won’t do this, I won’t do that. Just you have to explain that. Well, I know from what I’ve learned, this is a process I am I am not required to turn anything over unless there is a court, in essence, a court order or a subpoena. But you, Mr. Tennant, need to be doing what you need to be doing to take care of yourself as well. And that can be really hard, because what if it’s like a long term tenant that you really care about and you know your tenants are your biggest assets friends?
They are right. Keeping a good tenant is the best way to make money in property management. But you still have to be careful because you just don’t want to find yourself in that in that gray space of, you know, providing legal advice or, you know, finding yourself in a non-compliant status with, you know, with a court order.
Yoni Schmidt 25:58
Yeah, definitely. The tenants pay our salaries. Without them, we don’t charge management fees. And, you know, the industry doesn’t really exist. I’m I’m really glad you touched about legal advice because my next my next question here is about that.
You’ve had a long and impressive career advocating for property managers. What is aside from the legal advice, I guess you may have just given us about not giving legal advice to tenants. What’s one piece of legal advice that you think every property manager should keep top of mind, regardless of the issue?
Monica Gilroy 26:33
So regardless of whether we’re talking about anything at all. Okay. Your documents control. Okay. And this is why this is why your documents, your property management agreement, your lease, your policies and procedures are critical.
Because if your property management agreement right doesn’t give you the authority to do something and you do it, you’ve just breached that agreement, right? You’ve got to know your documents that you operate under. You’ve got to follow them. Right. Which is why I always advocate for, for example, property management agreements.
I advocate that you have, you know, language in there that limits your liabilities as a PM that provides what’s called exculpatory or, you know, CYA language, right? To be sure that you’re, you know, you’re protecting yourself. I have seen a large trend over the last few years of owners getting mad at property managers because of failed tenants, right? A tenant that was a fraudster, a tenant that wrecked the inside of the property. And they blame the PMS for saying, well, you put that person in there.
How come you didn’t know three years ago when they had a 800 credit score? And where the, you know, the president of this big company and had a perfect history that they were going to, you know, lose their job and, you know, half burned down the house. Well, we can’t know that, right? But limiting what our jobs are. Right?
Saying in our contracts, my job is to find a tenant, screen a tenant, manage a tenant. You know, things in our documents that say what we’re supposed to do. That is the number one way to avoid liability. It honestly is just have your documents be very tight in terms of what you do, what you can do, and then be sure you follow them, right. Be sure that you are doing what you’re supposed to do.
You know, keep keep your staff always trained on those things. But to me that is probably the number one thing, because if we we can always take the classes right about the fair housing and lead based paint and all that stuff. But at the end of the day, if our documents, our foundational documents, where we start our jumping off relationship with our owners and our tenants, if they aren’t good and don’t have language, that really helps define what you’re doing as a PM. You know, I’m I’m a pretty good lawyer, but it’s hard sometimes when I have a really bad document. Yeah.
Yoni Schmidt 28:52
So would that necessarily, or would that be the indemnification clause that you would include in a property management agreement?
Monica Gilroy 29:00
It’s indemnification, but it’s more than that, right. It’s what’s the scope of my job. Right. Is it my job to know as to you, Mr. Owner, that five years from now that tenant is going to not fall into default, right? You’re not controlling the if your tenant defaults or if they ruin the property.
Right. If your documents say you were going to inspect the premises, the property every six months, well then by gosh, you better go inspect it every six months. Because if you don’t and in month eight there’s a water leak and the house gets full of mold, suddenly you’ve just breached your obligation, right? So. So it’s not just indemnity, it’s doing what it’s it’s defining what you’re supposed to be doing as it relates to the tenant and as it relates to the owner.
Right. If you’re supposed to be giving your tenant as part of a resident benefit package. The insurance information, right. If they need to. If they are supposed to know how to reach out to their renter’s insurance, if they have a claim, you better give that to them.
Right? If they’re supposed to be doing something that you’re giving them as the as the PM to the tenant, be sure they have it right. If they’re supposed to be putting in the air filters, be sure they know how to do that. I mean, it’s just giving it’s doing the basic things that it says in the documents that you’re going to do. And yes, of course, obviously indemnity indemnity is important.
You know, in in every state it’s going to be upheld. We just and we’ve talked about this in other forums. But you know, indemnity can’t be wholly one sided. You’ve got to have some balance. But you know, again to me you don’t even need to get indemnity if you just follow, if you lay out, here’s what you’re hiring me to do, Mr. Owner.
And no more. So that way, if something happens, that’s part of the no more. I come into court and I say, judge, here’s what they’re supposed to do. And they did all these things. Makes a big difference.
Makes a big difference.
Yoni Schmidt 30:49
Yeah. Wonderful. Last question here that I have is for those who want to stay compliant and avoid missteps, how can they build a relationship with legal counsel that helps them respond confidently when these issues arise, whether it’s, you know, what we just spoke about, whether it’s the Ice issue in Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
Monica Gilroy 31:11
That’s great. That’s a great question. Obviously, you know, I’m a big I’m a big proponent of and I think that membership is great because it links you with many legal professionals across the country. There are, you know, certainly good landlord tenant attorneys that exist across the United States. There’s also some people that are very focused on some of these side issues, like fair housing and things like that, but it’s good to you always want to sort of know a lawyer in the event of emergency to just break glass, right.
I have a lot of clients, for example, who come to me with the problem. We established a relationship. You know, all across the country for one problem. But then once we’ve established that relationship, you know, it gives them an ability to, okay, this is bad. I need to call Monica now or I need to call my my lawyer now.
You want to try to find somebody? There may not be a one size fits all attorney because again, like, I’m sort of like a unicorn. I’m sort of weird, but because I’ve been in the industry for so long. But, you know, but there are others like me, like Harry heist out of Florida, an incredible resource. And many of these individuals have, you know, national practices like mine as well.
But you want to find somebody, even if it’s just somebody, you know, around the corner from you that at least understands your state’s landlord tenant laws. Right? And if you got some kind of nasty letter from somebody saying, you know, you withheld the security deposit and you owe me all this money that at least can respond on that behalf, right? It is always good, as a business owner in today’s business world, to have legal counsel, just like you should have an accountant, right? A tax professional, you should not be dabbling in the law by yourself.
You shouldn’t be dabbling in the taxes by yourself. You shouldn’t be dabbling in insurance yourself. Just have that as part of your team. It doesn’t need to be somebody you know, some it doesn’t need to be somebody who’s who’s super big and fancy. It just needs to be somebody that you trust, right.
Who can help you with good contract writing, but who also understands the landlord tenant laws in your states. And having someone like that is fantastic. And then, you know, knowing that there’s, you know, knowing that there’s other resources out there through and things like that. If the problem is bigger or more national in scope, you know, that’s great. You have lots of those, you know, people as well to, to help on that national platform, especially through Knaapen.
Yoni Schmidt 33:26
Yeah. Wonderful. So be a part of Knaapen so that you can access those resources. Absolutely.
Monica Gilroy 33:32
And all the education. Yes, yes. Yeah.
Yoni Schmidt 33:34
You’ve been such a wealth of knowledge and I can tell you, I mean, I’m, I’m smarter just for having this, I guess, 40 minute conversation with you.
Monica Gilroy 33:43
Well, thanks for having it with me, I enjoyed it, it was great.
Yoni Schmidt 33:45
And I hope our listeners also enjoyed it and learned something new. If anyone wants to get in touch with you, what’s the best way to do that?
Monica Gilroy 33:54
The best way is to do it via email, which is [email protected]. Also my website, gilroyfirm.com, has an entire page dedicated to property management. It’s an incredible wealth of forms, forms, banks, educational material, materials you may need in your practice. And so if someone goes there to check it out, there’s a lot of things they might find to be helpful in their business as well as ways to contact me and my team.
Yoni Schmidt 34:23
Nice. We’ll put those in the comments below so that you have easy access. Thank you so much for being here. I truly appreciate it.
Monica Gilroy 34:31
You’re welcome. Thank you. Have a great day. I appreciate it.
Yoni Schmidt 34:34
You too.
Outro 34:38
Thanks for listening to The Same Day Podcast. Tune in to a new show each week and be sure to subscribe to get future episodes.