Calculated Risks and Smart Investments in Real Estate and Owner Financing With Max McGuirk

In this episode of The Same Day Podcast, host Mat Zalk sits down with Max McGuirk, Commercial Real Estate Broker at Triple M Real Estate, to discuss calculated risks and smart investments. They cover how to find deals in challenging markets, the benefits of owner financing, and why understanding local market trends is essential. Max also shares real-life examples of successful property deals and how he navigates market uncertainties to build lasting wealth.

Calculated Risks and Smart Investments in Real Estate and Owner Financing

Max McGuirk is a Commercial Real Estate Broker at Triple M Real Estate, a company focused on acquiring and managing a diverse portfolio of properties, including long-term rentals, lease-to-own contracts, and property flips. In addition to his real estate ventures, Max runs a DJ and Photo Booth company in Tulsa. A former high school teacher, he began investing in real estate at the age of 21. Max also spent time wrestling for WWE in their developmental territory before transitioning into real estate full-time.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

• [2:47] Max McGuirk’s extensive real estate investing and entrepreneurial background
• [4:38] The dynamics between investor competition and primary end-users in the property market
• [5:20] The strategy behind acquiring a duplex with major rehabilitation requirements
• [10:43] Unexpected challenges and opportunities of evicting a squatter
• [15:12] Negotiating tactics used by Max to secure advantageous real estate deals
• [21:14] The persistent availability of deals despite current interest rates
• [23:07] Benefits of creating easy transactions and building trustworthy relationships
• [29:08] Why you should get started in real estate investment now instead of waiting for the perfect deal
• [35:35] How Max’s portfolio success signifies the enduring power of real estate
• [42:02] Max discusses his experience with owner finance and contract for deed deals

In this episode…

With fluctuating interest rates, market uncertainties, and unexpected property challenges, how can investors position themselves to succeed? What strategies can help balance risk with long-term gains?

According to Max McGuirk, a seasoned real estate investor, the key lies in taking calculated risks and focusing on properties with built-in equity. He highlights that buying affordable properties safeguards against market downturns, minimizing potential losses. Investors can maximize returns and ensure long-term stability by prioritizing deals with strong cash flow potential and being selective about buyers in owner-financing agreements. Max also emphasizes the importance of market expertise, advising investors to always be aware of local trends and to build relationships that lead to repeat business opportunities.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Mat Zalk on LinkedIn
• Yonatan Schmidt on LinkedIn
• Walter Bowser on LinkedIn
• Keyrenter Property Management
• Keyrenter Property Management in Tulsa | Oklahoma City | Arkansas
• Keyrenter Property Management email address: [email protected]
• Chris Lile State Farm 
• Max McGuirk: LinkedIn | Email | Contact no.: 918-231-9343

Special Mentions

• Kathy Portley on LinkedIn
• Tulsa Real Estate Investors Association
• Maximum Entertainment Mobile Music
• McGraw Commercial Properties
• David M. Dryer

Related Episodes

• “The Value of Private Money in Real Estate Investing” with Jay Conner on The Same Day Podcast
• “Successes and Failures in Real Estate” with Deren Huang on The Same Day Podcast

Quotable Moments

• “Being an expert in your market means having the knowledge to strike when the iron is hot without second-guessing.”
• “In real estate, if you can’t find a $500 cash flow deal, jump in anyway. The market’s long-term growth is too favorable to ignore.”
• “The first deal is the hardest, but once you start, the rest is history.”
• “I learned this in sales when I was selling boats: to ask a bunch of questions.”
• “It’s got to be a significant amount, you know, 6% or less, before I decide I’m going to refinance this whole package.”

Action Steps

1. Start building relationships with sellers and industry professionals to create a personalized network for potential deals: Direct negotiation and person-to-person connections often result in smoother transactions and better deals.
2. Consider properties that require extensive work if you can acquire them at a significant discount: Risky investments can pay off heavily; take calculated risks to get high rewards.
3. Don’t wait for market conditions to be perfect before investing; commit to a deal that makes sense now: Waiting for the ideal market conditions could result in missed opportunities.
4. Keep educating yourself on the local market to become an expert and make informed investment decisions quickly: Knowing the market enables investors to recognize and seize deals others might overlook.
5. Use contract for deed creatively to facilitate transactions that benefit both buyer and seller: It can be an effective strategy for securing deals and accommodating varied buyer situations.

Sponsor for this episode…

Chris Lile at State Farm Insurance:

This episode is brought to you by Chris Lile at State Farm Insurance.

Chris Lile at State Farm helps you protect your most precious assets and investments, including home and auto.

To learn more about how you can save double digits on all your insurance needs, visit diallile.com or call Chris’ office at 918-878-7771.

Keyrenter Property Management:

This episode is also brought to you by Keyrenter Property Management.

Keyrenter Property Management is a full-service property management company that helps clients buy, renovate, and operate real estate assets.

The team helps clients build wealth while taking the headache out of property management.

That’s why, no matter what rental you have — single-family homes, condos, townhomes, or apartments — they can give you the management solutions you need.

To learn more about their services, go to https://keyrenterpmc.com/ or send them an email at [email protected].

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:05

Welcome to The Same Day Podcast where we discuss driving incremental business growth and other topics related to real estate, property management and entrepreneurship. Now to the show at hand.

Mat Zalk 0:20

Mat Zalk here, I’m the host of The Same Day Podcast, where I connect with top business leaders and real estate experts. Past guests include Jay Conner, talking about raising private money, and Deren Huang, who’s 100 units under management and a host of industrial properties. Today’s episode is brought to you by Chris Lile State Farm. Chris Lile State Farm helps you protect your most precious assets and investments, whether it’s your rental home, auto investment, other investments, I should say, or anything else that is valuable in your life, call Chris Lile State Farm for a quick and painless phone call to potentially save double digits on all of your insurance needs. We’ll say insurance in Oklahoma is incredibly high, and many carriers have taken huge increases over the last year, but Chris Lile State Farm can really show you what insurance should cost for similar deductibles and great coverage. Just give them a call. Visit, diallile.com or call his office at 988787771. Today’s episode is also brought to you by Keyrenter Property Management. At Keyrenter Property Management, we are a full service property management company, helping our clients buy, renovate and operate real estate assets. We help our clients build wealth while taking the headache out of real estate ownership. If you’d like to give us a call, do so, or if you’d like to email us, rather send us a message at info, at keyrenterpmc.com, or go to our website, keyrenterpmc.com. Today’s guest is Max McGuirk. I love Max, great friend. Client of ours does a ton of stuff in the real estate world. And I should give a shout out to Kathy Portley, President of the Tulsa Real Estate Investors Association, who introduced us to Max some time ago. Max was a high school teacher, and he’s been investing in real estate since he was 21 years old, with long term rentals. He’s a serial entrepreneur. He owns and operates a DJ and Photo Booth company in Tulsa, and he was contracted with WWE after college in their developmental territory in Tampa, Florida, 2009 2010 he joined McGraw and left a little bit thereafter, he was focusing on commercial properties, but he really wanted to just focus on acquisition of his own properties, lease to own contract for deed, long term rentals, flips a bunch of other cool stuff. So I’m excited to hear from Max today. Max McGuirk, welcome to the show. How are you?

Max McGuirk 2:47

I’m wonderful. Man, good to see you, man.

Mat Zalk 2:49

When’s the last time we chatted on the pod?

Max McGuirk 2:51

I feel like it’s been almost a year.

Mat Zalk 2:54

Well, can it be that long?

Max McGuirk 2:55

I don’t think so. I mean, maybe a little bit less. Maybe I was talking to you about my Briarwood house last time we talked. So when did you move in? Oh, man, that was the that was a house I was rehabbing. I was building my house. When we were talking last I don’t think we brought it up so well.

Mat Zalk 3:13

So it’s been a while. Tell me you’re, you’re like a real mover and shaker about town. You’ve always got deals in the works. What are you seeing? What are you seeing in the market? What are you What are you sensing from seven and a half 8% interest rates? Like, what’s, what’s changed since the whatever, six to 12 months since we go, since we chatted?

Max McGuirk 3:31

Yeah, so I remember talking that like, Hey, we’re I feel like a slowdown. But it never slowed down. It slowed down the winter time. So I think I told you at lunchtime I had probably six deals that all popped up between after labor day till the end of the year. I had a couple more deals, like right after the first of the year. And then, obviously, it’s kind of been slow for me, just because there’s so many buyers in the market from, let’s call it March 15, till now, I’m starting to see price drops considerably popping up in the market. I’ve had two or three deals going to contract lately, so I feel like the summer buyers starting to kind of calm down just a little bit school starting back up. There’s uncertainty with the market in terms of the rates. I mean, like, what was it a week ago Friday, they’re screaming recession, and now they’re like, no, no, we’re good. We’re good. So I think there’s uncertainty you got the election coming. So I think there’s people on the sidelines that are not going to refinance until after they until after they know who’s in office.

Mat Zalk 4:24

Yeah. So how much for the properties that you go under contract and buy, ultimately is, do you think that your competition for those properties are primary or end users? Are they all other investors? Other investors?

Max McGuirk 4:38

100% other investors. It’s very rare that I’m going against a first time homebuyer.

Mat Zalk 4:45

Yeah, I don’t, I don’t feel that I am.

Max McGuirk 4:46

Because the stuff that I’m buying generally needs a lot of work, and or I’m buying a property that’s got a renter in it, and so if there’s a if there’s a house that’s got a renter in it, then a first time homebuyer is not looking at that because, like, the. Paint and appliances and stuff like, that’s probably not gonna be what they want. Yeah. And then the other side of it is like, I think I told you lunchtime, I’m doing a duplex that I’ve had for a little over a year. I paid 75 grand for it, and I’m putting $100,000 in rehab. There’s very few lenders that are gonna say, Hey, first time home buyer, here’s 100 grand of rehab money. So I’m generally not.

Mat Zalk 5:20

You haven’t done this before. Is at right.

Max McGuirk 5:24

Yeah. So generally, I’m not going against the first time homebuyer. So and on those they’re emotional and I’m not emotional. And so if my bottom dollar, like the best dollar I can buy is 120 they’re going to pay 150, 160. So yeah.

Mat Zalk 5:36

So let’s talk about the let’s talk about the duplex deal. There are plenty of folks that are looking to do additional deals. They’ve got capital. It’s been sitting on the sidelines. They’d love to put it to work. And whether it’s a a property that’s experienced fire damage or has foundation issues or has other warts, like the like the duplex deal they may be considering. Do I want to buy this property that has significant issues, or do I not? Let’s talk about the duplex deal. Let’s talk through all the all the warts on that project. And maybe some people that are on the fence about investing in projects, as opposed to cash flowing properties, would, you know, jump off the fence and say I’m willing to take on a project.

Max McGuirk 6:21

Yeah, absolutely so. So that deal came to me from basically just a relationship, like a, it was a guy who I had sold the contract for deed property to, and he said, Hey, man, I found this opportunity. And what’s funny is it was a the guy that had it, that was that I was talking to the owner, his dad had had it 40 years, 100% like, enormous amount of deferred maintenance just didn’t take care of it. Just been sitting there wasting away low, low rents. And so immediately, when I walked in, it was, you know, there was, there was, you could tell on the one tenant that was in there, nobody had taken a credit check. Nobody had had vetted this, this tenant, and so they were just in there. How’d you thank God they were paying. Yeah, you could just tell five, five pit bulls, you know? Okay, yeah, yeah. And anyway, so the property was in really bad shape. And like I told you, lunchtime, man, I came in there knowing quarter lot, 27th and Harvard home run deal, 140, 70 grand, a unit like this is mine, and I’m not walking away without a contract, right? And of course, I walked it after walking it, I walked away with no contract by choice, right? And anyway, so it was just one of those things that I had to have, that same process that another investor might be thinking about, right? Like, How much work do I want to put into this, you know, like, do I want to spend nine months fixing this thing? And I’ve said this in the past, of, when I go to buy a property, when I’m talking to the owner, and we’re discussing price, and it the biggest question I’ve got is, what’s behind door number two, right? Like, I opened up door number one, and that’s the property. But when I go to tear up a wall that has, you know, the hot water tank, and there’s black mold back there. Or I go to replace a window, and then I feel soft drywall, and there’s black mold back there. It’s just like all the remediation stuff that you got to do. So when I first saw the property, like, I told you, when I saw that property, I was less interested. I’d already, like, told the owner, like, Man, I’m going to give you a cash offer. We’re closing tomorrow. We’re rocking and rolling. Got his phone number. I never called him. He called me the next day, and was like, man, What? What? What changed? And I was just, you know, I did answer the phone, because I always answer the phone. And I said, let’s go get coffee and let’s talk. So when I when I went to go see that house, I was told, Hey, 140 grand. This guy’s firm. He’s a real estate agent. He knows what he’s got. So I looked at the comps in the neighborhood. 268, 275, there’s other duplexes in the area, and I’m feeling like 27th and Harvard, like this is home run, right? So, so I look at the property, I could tell there was some foundation, right? The concrete slab, I don’t like that. 90% of my houses are crawl space. You can brace it up easy. You don’t have to bust out a bunch of concrete. So I got scared, to be honest with you, I’ve been doing it for 17 years. I’m scared. And so the owner said, Hey, man, let’s let’s meet. So we met at Panera the next day, and he said, Well, you know what made you change your mind? I said, Man, there’s 80 to $100,000 of rehab that I got to do this thing, 80 on the low end, and And so anyway, so we’re sitting there talking, and I walked in knowing we don’t have a deal. There’s no way we’re going to get anywhere near 140 and so he he’s doing his math, and he said, So 80 to $100,000 so you’d be between 75 and $80,000 on purchase. And Mat, I kid you not. Like, it was an immediate response, and it was yes. Like, I don’t even know what I was saying yes to, but I said yes. And at that point it went from HECK NO to this deal because it’s so hairy I don’t want anything to do with it, to I can’t get this guy to sign a contract fast enough. Yeah, so, so going, going with all that stuff, I knew by the purchase price that I had plenty of room of, okay, if the comps in there 275, and I’ve got it at 70, like, I could darn near tear this thing down, build it new, and I’m okay, yeah, and that did cross my mind quite a bit, because there was a lot of work, you know. So once, once I got the property and had attended in there, they had just signed a lease, like two weeks before I talked to this guy. So I had 12 months to live with this guy, no heat near on either side. Once I had a homeless person. I mean, this thing was probably the worst of the worst. And I was just like, Man, this is, this is going to be a long ride.

Mat Zalk 10:43

So you put heat and air over the course of 12 months? Did you put heat and air into the property? I did not. I did not. What would you do if they said this person Max assumed a lease, the Oklahoma landlord tenant Act requires that we have, you know, essential items. Would you just give him space heaters. Like, what would you do?

Max McGuirk 11:01

I’m sure I probably would have. So like, this is not typical Max McGuirk property, right? And so like, I did all I could to buy that property without the tenant, right? So I offered 77 five for this, for this property. And I said, I want the tenant gone. And so the owner said, Man, I’m going to want to do that. This guy is, he’s been a great tenant for many years.

Mat Zalk 11:21

He’s living with five pit bulls, and he’s got no heat in there.

Max McGuirk 11:25

Yeah, yeah. I was surprised. The best I was surprised there was running water. So, so I said, Okay, well, like, what if I, you know, like, how do I get the tenant out there? Is it? Well, I mean, I can, we can lower the price. We lowered the price. I originally thought Cash for Keys. Like, I’m gonna give this guy two grand and walked and so I just leveled with the guy. I walked in. I said, Hey, I’m buying your property, but I want you to know that, like, I can’t start work on the other property, because, like, I’m gonna get, and I wouldn’t rude about it, but I’m like, there’s gonna be bugs crawling from both sides. And I’m like, I gotta, I gotta clear this thing out, the entire thing, air, the whole thing out. Start over. And he’s like, I get it. And I said, so I’m gonna honor your lease for 12 months. And I said, and then at that point I’m not gonna renew. And I said, I’m also not fixing anything. I said, If water doesn’t work, I’ll come in there. I’ll fix I’ll fix the plumbing. But I said, otherwise, man, like, I’ve got to gut this thing and start over. And he’s like, Dude, I get it. I get it. And he knew that he was under rent by at least half, like my 50% he knew. And so, so I said that expectation to him early, and he agreed. And I said, but I will tell you this, if you, if you stay here and you pay for 12 months and you pay on time, I will buy you a house within reason. We talked about a number, and I said, I will finance it to you so you, instead of paying rent, you’ll own it. And he said, Okay. And and so over the months that he always paid on time. Matter of fact, he paid four or five days in advance, on time. The guy was more dependable than most tenants I’ve ever had in my life. And close to December, he said, Hey, man, I want to ask a little bit more questions about this, this subject of me buying a house from so we looked at some properties, and most of them were just really, really awful and just stuff I probably wouldn’t have I wouldn’t have purchased just because of just the fear of getting it back. And in the midst of, like I told you how, how busy the late fall was for me, and was buying a bunch of property, I purchased this one home, little two bed, one bath. But it was new roof, new bathroom, new heat and air. I mean, it was just essentially everything he needed. And we looked a couple things, and we were getting kind of close to the 60 day mark and and nothing really made sense. And I said, Hey, tenant, you want to go take a look at this address? I left a key box. He walked in, and I kid you not. Hour later, he calls back. He says, My wife looked at it. We want it. Puts 10% down. We sat down, did a contract for deed, and, of course, just, just like the other property, he’s been clockwork, right? So now he’s got ownership, right? So he’s got a 10% deposit on the house, every payments going to paying down the the principal. And he’s, you know, he’s got a home that’s his. So that turned out awesome. So when that emptied, we’ll go back to the duplex. When that emptied, I had told the I’ll start this back over. I had a tenant on one side, and I had another gentleman that was squatting, essentially, but was watching over the two bed one bath unit. And so I had told that person that, hey, you got 30 days to leave, because the other tenant who’s paying needs to leave. So he’s like, yeah, no problem. Well, March 1 comes. The tenant that was paying left and the squatter did not. So it took me 60 days to evict the guy, and these guys actually went to the eviction court and asked for an extension. Wow. So yeah, so it was, it was pretty wild, but I tore everything up. And when I’m telling you, like I was busting out the slab, I didn’t bust out the entire slab, but put some piers in, which you know, of course, when you shift piers, 90% of those things brick. So I had to re brick, some spots of it, brand new. $30,000 TPO roof.

Mat Zalk 14:56

Wow, a TPO roof. So it’s a flat, it’s a flat roof. Flat.

Max McGuirk 14:59

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and most of you can imagine, most of the top of the sheets of plywood were rotten, so I had to pull all that off. And so anyway, yeah, it was everything, new windows, new electrical panels, new plumbing, new everything.

Mat Zalk 15:12

So let me ask you this, the seller offers this thing for 140 then goes down to 75 ultimately, the cops in the neighborhood are 270 if he knew the market so well, why would he not have stuck firm to hey, it’s, it’s 140 with a max potential work load of 120 Which gets me to 260 and by the way, buyer you have built in $10,000 of equity. Why would he go down to such a low price, knowing that 100 and X number of dollars would would would get you to $100,000 in equity in the in the rehab.

Max McGuirk 15:56

So that was a good question. So before I got into this, so a lot of things I’ve learned in my life is asking a bunch of questions, right? Yeah, so I asked that question before we before I gave him a number, before we discussed the purchase, I said, seller, what do you think this thing is worth? Fixed? And he gave me a number, and it was under 200 grand, and that was his personal opinion. And he is a realtor. Been a realtor for longer than I’ve ever been a realtor. I’ve been a realtor for a year. I’ve had my license. And so his professional opinion is, is based off of, you know, what he’s seen in the area and that kind of stuff. And so I let him make that decision. And so I said, Okay, well, that’s if that’s what you feel the other side of it is the the pushing factor of him needing to sell, right was, could he keep this? Could he could he make this, this transaction, go longer? Could he put it up for offers and that kind of stuff, he could. But he also a father who had a trust, who was in failing health, and he knew that I need to sell these properties before my dad takes a turn for the worst. Got it. And so, so there was a whole bunch of different things there, and so that that gave me the knowledge, like knowing that this guy’s chasing me to buy his property. I did feel like I was in a pretty good negotiating position, position, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so. But he also knew, like, when I told him 80 to $100,000 he didn’t, I mean, he’s probably not somebody that’s doing this every day like I am, but he probably said, You know what? You’re probably right. And he probably said, Man, I got, I’ve got somebody who’s interested. I better hook this guy while he’s while he’s still interested. So it was a fair deal for him and me. The other side of it, I will tell you, is, within nine months of that transaction, he he actually sold me two more properties. They had tenants in them. And it was the same thing. It was, hey at closing, I need you to execute a brand new 12 month contract with these same tenants at the existing low rents. And it pushed me into North also just barely, like once Harvard Admiral and the other ones that shared in an admiral and but I mean, you know, like when I’m telling you with debt, $490 a month cash flow per property, yeah, you know, you twist my arm, I’ll take it.

Mat Zalk 18:11

There’s a nice little community at Harvard and Admiral on the east side of Harvard. It’s mostly owner occupied. There’s a bunch of cute like 1920s 1930s all brick houses in there. I mean, I’ve always it’s like Admiral court, maybe a bunch of there’s, there are pockets all over Tulsa that are little gems that like the neighborhood looks like it’s, you know, 11th and Sheridan, or something, uh, 21st and Sheridan. There’s some little there are some little pockets. So basically, he wanted to avoid the headache of kicking out the tenants himself and or raising the rents himself or anything else, and he was willing to give up a significant portion of his own money to make that happen. And so what advice or thoughts would you give to an owner that was considering making a deal where they had to do a bunch of hard work in exchange for getting a great price on a property.

Max McGuirk 19:08

So what would i What advice would I give an owner? I’d say, Hey. I mean, how do you want the transaction to go? Right? So, like a typical transaction, when you’ve got a realtor and you’ve got a house and it’s not as is, and it’s on the market, then you got trr, right? You got the maintenance and repairs of, hey, I want this fix, this fix, this fix, before I close on it. Right? Where most investors that come in, like, I don’t change my number. So if I say, Hey, man, I’m gonna give you 75 grand. Like, here’s what it is. It’s as is. I’m not, I’m not having you fix anything. I’m not renegotiating. This is it. So we peel the bandit, we peel the band aid off. This is what it is. So if you’re an owner and you got a house that’s in really, really good condition, let’s say, you know, you got a good location, then maybe you put it out there on the market and try to get the best dollar. But if it’s 40 years of deferred maintenance, you know, it’s in a wreck condition, as opposed to, I’ve seen so many. Properties go up for sale on the market, even if they say, as is, they’ll be back on the market three days later, five days later, whatever. Because, you know, the new investor is going to walk in like, Oh my God. I thought it was just paint, maybe flooring, you know, I didn’t know there was going to be piers. So the thing I would say is, if you might give up some equity in terms to have a a sure deal, right, knowing that the guys get cash, and those are things that you got to bet to, you know, ask for proof of funds and that kind of stuff. So that’s what I would say. If, if I was selling a property, I didn’t have the money to fix it, I would want to know that the guy has funds. He can close quick, and there was no, no renegotiation.

Mat Zalk 20:40

Yeah, no retrading Back on the price. That happens. That does happen. A lot people say, I’ll give you X number of dollars. And they come back and say, Well, I didn’t expect that. This, this and this are gonna be wrong. Well, right? I’m under contract for a property right now. When I said, Let me, you know, I’ll write up an offer just to put in your inbox, and then I’ll go inspect it. And he said, No, go inspector first, and then write me an offer. So, yeah. What about, what about current interest rates? Are you finding that it’s difficult to find cash flowing properties? Are you still, still seeing deals out there?

Max McGuirk 21:14

Still finding deals? I just bought two that were on the market, literally on the market, MLS MLS, deals, MLS. And so if you ask me, where am I finding most of my deals? I find that myself. I find there was two duplexes off 11th and Allegheny that went back and forth with a wholesaler who lived in San Diego but never been here, went back and forth. And I kept asking her. I offered her. She was talking to me every day for three days. I said, Do we have a deal, and she never responded to me, which, which meant she’s dating three other people, right? She’s She’s working three other people, and and then all of a sudden they went 10 grand over where we were negotiating. And then I said, Well, you know where my number’s at. Four days later, she calls me back and says, Hey, can you drop five grand of EMD? I’ve never seen the property. She never got me in it, and I just ended up getting really, like, fired up, upset, you know, just frustrated because, like, Nothing, Nothing drives me more nuts trying to find a deal that makes sense, and I’m negotiating against you and five other people I don’t know, and probably I’m just negotiating against myself. So what I found is I’ve been buying more property off the MLS, like you said, inboxing an offer. Here’s my my proof of funds. It’s either yes or no, right? So I’m I might have done one deal with a wholesale in the past 12 months, just because they end up just making me mad, you know. And I don’t need to have my blood pressure shoot through the roof for somebody who’s never even seen this property and cares none about myself. So a lot of the stuff I’m finding is either for sale by owner. A lot of, I say 40% of my deals are from past sellers. And they’ll say, Hey, man, I know you’ve made this transaction easy for me to pass. I got another one. What do you think? And I’m nicer to them, on a, on a, on a purchase price, just because, you know, as long as, as long as it makes sense. And if there’s you know, attended in there, and it’s cash flows, then I’ll be as generous as I can on a purchase price. So that’s where my deals are coming from.

Mat Zalk 23:07

Something to be said about making the transaction easy, being fair and honest and friendly and hoping that you may have paid a few $1,000 more than you wanted to you never budge on your numbers. I won’t say you you as a Max McGuirk, but I may pay a few $1,000 more than I want, but there could be a bunch of additional properties that are strong, cash flowing properties on the back side of that first transaction.

Max McGuirk 23:29

Absolutely so. So back to my my thing I learned this in sales when I was selling boats, is, is ask a bunch of questions, right? So one question I always ask, so when we when we get close to an agreement, I say, Hey, do you have anything else? What other properties do you have? Right? Because, like, this was a great transaction. We’ve got a good communication. You know, I said I’ll close on X date. I’m doing it. Oh, by the way, do you have anything else I’m always buying, right? And that that turns into repeat business, whether it’s that same seller or the seller’s buddy down the street has a property he’s going to call me, don’t have to worry about a agent, and I’ll get back into the agent side of it. I’ve had my license for a little over a year, and I’ve made $6,000 in commission over the past 12 months, and I’ve bought 12 houses in 23 and I think I’ve six or seven right now. I What ends up happening? I bought a house 24th in Pittsburgh, 2445, South Pittsburgh, I just actually gave the keys to Olivia and and your team at key rider. Nice. And that house I bought for $115,000 a real estate agent McGraw, you know, relationship there says, Hey, I got this property. It’s only a two one, it’s a corner lot. I walked in and I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, I knew, I knew I had gold. I had literally bought, bought six blocks down at 30th in Pittsburgh, right down the street. And you guys have that as well. You guys manage and do a fantastic job on that property. And I knew what the property was, and I said, matter of fact, here’s my comp. Here’s when I closed on it. I’m six blocks away. They wanted 125 I wanted 110 and we negotiated 115 And I mean, like from day one, I mean, it’s at least a $200,000 house, at least, you know, I put 20, $24,000 rehab in it. I converted the third the garage to a third bedroom, new cabinets, granite countertops, and so just just knowing your numbers and relationships. The more people I talk to, the more people know I buy houses, the better deals are just laying in my lap.

Mat Zalk 25:23

So how does the average person get rental comps for a neighborhood like that? I mean, I guess they can come. Our team’s always running rental cops for people and determining what they’re worth. But if you don’t have a relationship with a realtor, or you’re it’s hard to have a relationship with a realtor if you’re never actually buying through them. That’s the challenge. So people feel rightly so abused. You’re just using them for the cops, and you’re not going to actually pay me a commission. I’m out here. Do commission. I’m out here doing all this work for you, etc. But is there a way through Zillow, or anything else, where you can actually get real rent comps?

Max McGuirk 25:49

So, so my rent comps, I mean, you could, you could do that. There’s, I’m sure, different websites you can search. But, I mean, I always ask Olivia, right? I’m like, Hey, for this property, this this house, what do you think I could get? Right? The other thing I’ll do is you can jump on Zillow and search that immediate, you know, one mile area, and search for other things like that. What I always try to do is, if rents are 17 or 1800 I’m going to shoot mine at 1600 if it’s similar in size and condition, then if think about 100 or $200 less, they’re going to jump on yours first. So that’s what I shoot for. The other side of it is when you asked me, like, I listened to our podcast from before, and I talked about my area being from Lewis to Mingo and south, and now I’ve crossed over Admiral just a little bit. But when you are an expert of your market, like, you know, you know an address, and you automatically know 1.25 you know, dollar 25 a square foot, you know, based off of what you’re looking at, or more or less whatever. So, so if you can be an expert, like if you wake up every single morning and you’re checking your MLS, and you know your your areas, when an address comes across, you automatically know if it’s a price point within your strike, strike place, you know whatever it is, you jump on it. So it’s just a matter of being an expert in that area.

Mat Zalk 27:00

Yeah, I said rent comps, and I meant sale comps. But that was a good answer for that was a good rent a good answer for the rent comp question that I asked, which is go to go to Olivia or your property manager or, I mean, I guess rentometer, there’s a couple of places we actually go. You have to have a paid subscription rentometer If you actually want to run good rent comps. And we use the back end of our website, which has a bunch of stuff. We also have, because we manage almost 3000 properties, we have a good idea of what things rent for, generally. But on the sales side, if you weren’t, if you weren’t an MLS agent, if you didn’t have your license active and didn’t have active MLS access, how would you, how would you know what properties would trade for?

Max McGuirk 27:39

On the sales side, paying attention, so you can look at sold on Zillow. So I wasn’t an agent till last year. So I spent 16 of my 16 years of my life buying property without getting my real estate license. And the only reason I got it, I wouldn’t recommend anybody doing it. I mean, you can get it if you want to. It’s not helped me much, except for getting on the MLS. So I can, you know, see, occasionally, like you’ll get paid when you buy stuff, but what I’ve been doing is negotiating against my commission. So, like, think of that. If you’re if you’re an agent, you’re listing this thing, you’re going to get your 3% I walk in as a buyer, and I generally would have my own buying agent, and I’m going to get 3% or somebody’s going to get 3% but if I said, Hey Mat, you’re going to get both sides, you’re going to get 6% and I just want the best deal for myself. You’re going to get double paid. You’re probably going to work for me the best you can to help me get the best price, knowing you’re going to get double paid. Yeah. So that’s that’s what I would say. So if you want to get your license, that’s great. That’s great. I did it for 16 years. I bought over 100 houses in Tulsa, and never needed it.

Mat Zalk 28:41

You can still do that without being an agent. You just say, I’m unrepresented and you can take my commission. You have negotiated 6% or 5% or whatever you’ve negotiated with the seller. I’m unrepresented and I will let you take my commission as well if you help me get a deal on this house. And it is realtors are they’re commission driven. People are trying to feed their families. And so if you allow them to take that extra 3000 or 4000 or $5,000 they will work super hard to get a deal done.

Max McGuirk 29:08

Absolutely so, so, so think of like, I’m gonna go buy a house, whether it’s cash or if I’ve got financing or whatever, and I know I got a $25,000 budget for rehab that I’m gonna have probably a 25% over is just the case. Like $3,000 is a drip of the bucket, you know, for me. So why? Might as well push that off to the other agent to ensure that I get the deal. So that way, at least I have a house to work on. So that’s how I mess with it. You would ask about interest rates. I’m doing. I’m dating the rate. Man, I say that rates are uneffective, right? Like, for me, it’s a matter of if I buy the property. I think I told you this before, I will, generally, I’ve got a thick chunk of cash that I use, that I’ve been using, and just kind of rolling. So I’ll buy a lot of these things to cash. I’ll refinance it, or I’ll fix them up in cash. And then when I want the money back to go buy more properties, I’ll. I’ll take them as a package, take them to a local bank and refinance, get my cash back out of them. I did a $800,000 refi back in May 775, five year, five year, locked term, 20 year term. So commercial and so what will happen is, I mean, I’m not going to the moment it drops a quarter point. I’m not refinancing. It’s got to be a significant amount, you know, 6% or less, before I decide I’m going to refinance this whole package. So do I see rates dropping? Sure. I mean, last week we saw them drop. I mean, shoot, I think the 15 year was under 6% at one point. And so I think that’s it’s tentative. Everybody’s trying to figure out, are they going to drop interest rates in September, which I think they will. We’ll see. They’ve teased us. We’ll see. So I’m not, I’m not too worried about it right now, if it cash flows, I’ll put it this way, if it cash flows at 775, you just wait until it drops to five and a half, you’re going to be rich, yeah, right. So I’m not worried about it. I built my personal house and I got a 7% rate, and is what it is, right? But if it drops to five, I’ll refi, but nothing until then.

Mat Zalk 31:15

Yeah. I just wonder how we look when rates do drop to five, are we going to see a whole new class of buyer that’s been sitting on the sidelines where they couldn’t find deals like cash flow now, bidding up the price for, for, for properties that we’re competing on?

Max McGuirk 31:34

I feel like that’s the case, right? So we, you know, I’ve talked in the past about, you know, the 2008, 9, 10, like nobody was buying. I mean, if you’re the bank, you’re begging me please Max, buy my house, right? And 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, I mean, like it was just the houses would sit and you could, I would just wait for price drops, and I would buy. Now, it’s a little bit different. You got people that are it’s different. You’ve got Austin, Texas and Colorado. You got different buyers from different states that are jumping in there because we have cheap real estate. So I can, I feel if, if a recession doesn’t happen, or some kind of strong reset that scares people off a little bit from real estate the moment they drop rates, we’re going to have 2021 right again? I mean, it’s just going to be one of those things where, you know, and that’s the case, you know, I’ve got 27 properties I’ve built up in the past two years. And I’m building it up subconsciously to think that if there’s another run up of property, and these houses I’m buying for 110 grand are back to 202 50. I’m going to sell them all again, you know. So that’s, that’s kind of what’s in my mind. I think there’s going to be a strong shaking of the economy that scares people, so that when the rates drop, that it doesn’t hit like a gold rush, like it did in 21.

Mat Zalk 32:50

But there’s so many people that we get phone calls all the time, and Yoni and Hannah and I sit on calls from people that are out of state, that are like, I’m looking for Section Eight properties that will cash flow $500 a piece. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, those people. We saw them in March of 2000 waiting for the bottom to fall out, and then they were going to buy a property. We see them now waiting for the bottom to fall out. They never end up buying properties. Meanwhile, you’re scooping up properties. I bought one June. I’m buying one right now, like, I’ll buy. I don’t buy nearly as aggressively as you because I don’t have the I don’t have the pipeline that you have. You just have people coming out of the woodwork to sell you properties. They just, like, hear your name and they just want to sell property. It’s crazy. And I’d love to be able to do that, but I don’t. So I buy them. You know, if I can buy three, four a year, I’d love to do that. But those people that are not buying properties right now because they can’t get $500 a month. They can’t get $400 they can do only do $300 a month. They will never actually get into the market. How do we convince those people that there’s not going to be what’s the old expression? The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, but the second best time is today. Like you just have to, at some point, jump in. They’re going to be listening to you $500 free cash flow a month. And they’re gonna say, I hadn’t seen any deals like that. I don’t know how to do those deals, but they still, even if you can’t get something at $500 free cash flow a month, I feel like you have to at some point, just sign on the dotted line. Just, just accept the and get started.

Max McGuirk 34:16

Yeah, yeah, your first deal is the hardest deal, right? And I told you a story the last time we talked about this home run of two houses, I bought that face to you, like, that’s a once in a 16 year deal for me. Like, that never happens, right? So I’ve got a, I’ve got a metric of i I’ve got to make, I’ve got to have, at least I’m buying equity, right? So if I buy a house for 100 grand, like, I’m hoping that, like, if I sold it tomorrow with no work in it, that I’m selling for 140 like, I’ve got to, I’ve got to buy some kind of equity, even if I’m not making much cash flow, like, maybe if I’m making $200 a month cash flow, that I’ve bought $40,000 of equity from day one, right? Otherwise it’s not worth my time. I’m not going to buy 100,000 house per 100 grand, because now I’ve got, I’ve got to wait five or 10 years before. Where it’s got some kind of value. So So I try to buy chunks of equity in to your to answer your question, for the people that haven’t jumped in, or they can’t find that, that $500 of equity, like you said, You’ve got to jump in and buy something. So that way you can start feeling and knowing what the market’s like. Because I’ll tell you some of the properties that I was buying in 2017, 18, 19, and the rents were 700 It blows my mind that some of those are like $1,600 rents, right, you know. And if you would have just held on the market for five months, five, five or six years, all of a sudden, you got a huge, you know, huge run up in equity, so in rent.

Mat Zalk 35:35

The first house that I ever bought in Boulder, Colorado, where my sister is still living. We paid. We went under contract at 430 that was a huge sum of money. And by the time all was said and done, we were at 465 because the sellers wanted to sell us their EV system, their solar array on top of their house, which, of course, I didn’t care about, because I wasn’t going to be paying the electricity bill. Anyways, the tenant was But nonetheless, we ended up paying 465, we got into it. The back of the house almost immediately, which is an unpermitted edition, almost immediately, fell off, and we had to pay $80,000 to do that. So I’m in this thing for call it $545,000 and that was 20. Call it 2015 rents were 3500 bucks. Our mortgage was $2,500 and fast forward 10 years. The properties I just did a desktop appraisal at 950 which is crazy, and the rents are at 42 or $4300 so I don’t think that deal was a home run. We didn’t initially think this is going to be a crazy deal. We had certainly a good amount of cash flow on a monthly basis. But fast forward 10 years, and almost any deal you do looks like a great deal. Yoni always says, on our team always says hindsight. Hindsight is 2020. Says everything looks cheap in the rear view mirror, like real estate. It’s you’re there’s it’s so forgiving. If you are Max McGuirk and you make your living off of rentals, it’s very important that you have equity built in when you start that the cash flow numbers make sense. But if you’re just a normal dude, and you have a w2 that pays for your living expenses, and you’re able to save a little bit of money so you can buy houses so that in 30 years, you have a bunch of paid off homes that have tripled in rent, and the value of the home is appreciated significantly, 3% a year for 30 years. Is a pretty good compound return. Like, I just figure you almost can’t go wrong. And so for the people that called me in March of 2020 that were like, I’m ready to buy I’m ready to buy. I’m just waiting for the bottom to fall out. And at the time, I said, I don’t have a crystal ball. You don’t have a crystal ball. Prices could go up. They could go down. We don’t have any idea. And it turned out that they went up 40% between 20 July of 2020, and July of 2024, 45% or something like that. It’s just like, at some point you have to just bite the bullet. Sign the deed, sign the note. Move on with your life and accept 100 200 300 400 $500 for free cash flow month.

Max McGuirk 38:04

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can’t time the market, you know? I mean, if I would have bought, I always say this, I would have bought all the houses that were on the market that were worth 130 that I was buying for 80,000 bucks in 2013 to 17, I’d be the richest man in Tulsa, right? And you just, you just can’t, you can’t, you can’t time the market. I bought, I bought a condo at the reserve on Monkey Island for $70,000 in April. I closed in April of 2020, pandemic hit. Everybody’s freaking out. This one seller was from Tulsa.

Mat Zalk 38:33

Where’s the reserves?

Max McGuirk 38:36

Right next door door, yeah, my tenant is right next door. Works in marine Max, right? Yeah. And, and so I remember I bought it, and it was 70 grand. I thought about buying the one next to it, but I just, I don’t know, I just buy just one, right? The cheapest one in there is 229, right? I mean, insane. And, and I wouldn’t sell it, you that would be the last property you’d probably out of my dead, cold hands. I’m just never going to sell it, you know. And so just, you just can’t, you can’t.

Mat Zalk 39:02

I mean, there were times in 2018, 1920 when we were looking at wholesale deals, back when we back when wholesaling, there weren’t as many people doing it. The market wasn’t flooded with wholesalers. They were like, honest people doing honest work. Is what it felt like at the time. They’d be transparent, and they’d say, I’ve got this at 30 I need to sell for 35 and you were happy to pay my $5,000 commission for all the work that they were doing to make this deal go through. But anyways, we were looking at two deals. It was two houses, a client of ours miles. Two houses, right on, like, just north of 244, so not where you buy, but I call it the near north. It’s now turned into a reasonably good neighborhood, and the wholesaler wanted 70 grand for two houses. It was like 35 a piece, right across from each other, 829, 828, North Lawrence or something. And I remember the client and I look at each other going, $35,000 apiece. I don’t know. It doesn’t even have a new roof. We’ll have to spend 3000 on the roof. Probably have to play replace the three ton air conditioning. That’s going to cost another two grand. Now, it’s like somebody offered you for $35,000 a house that was rented for and they rent for 900 $1,000 a month. Now, I mean, if somebody offered you that to get $2,000 a month in rent for 70 grand, you would jump on it 10 times out of 10. You wouldn’t ask any questions. You wouldn’t look a gift horse in the mouth. So it’s just crazy how time goes by and and everything looks cheap in the rearview mirrors, you know.

Max McGuirk 40:29

And back to that board. Man, like, I think you’ve got to have that risk muscle, right? So like, we talk about calculated risk. Like, I’ll go to I’ll go to river spirit, I’ll go to Vegas, go wherever, and I will not gamble. I just, I’m very structured. That’s just not my thing.

Mat Zalk 40:44

Those hotels don’t build themselves with the with the owner’s money.

Max McGuirk 40:48

No. Like, and I get pissed when I lose $20 like, it hurts, you know, yeah, and so, like, I like to say, Man, when I go, when I when I make an offer, like, it’s calculated. I’ve done the math. There’s no way I’m going to lose my butt, right? If I lose $200 because it’s, you know, holding costs or whatever, like, I’m going to make that up in the next 2436, months of rent, that kind of stuff. And so, like, I think that somebody sitting on the sidelines that wants to go buy a property, you just got to go do it, right? And what I I tell people, I generally don’t buy anything over two, 250 grand, generally over 200 grand that way, like, if, if the market does correct a little bit, and the prices go down and rents go down, like you’re taking, it’s like taking $100,000 car, pulling it right off the showroom floor, and then turn it in in the next day, they’re gonna knock your head off, like 30 grand, if not more, right? Yeah, so you got, you got a shorter distance to fall if you buy a less expensive property. So that’s kind of how I I focus on stuff. It’s not the same type of house that I’d be buying and living in, but, but on the same I like to be safe. So I think somebody’s just, if they’re thinking about getting the market, you just have to pull the trigger, see if it’s right for you, and if it’s not, sell and move on.

Mat Zalk 41:58

Yeah, you still seeing good activity in the contract for deed space.

Max McGuirk 42:02

I am actually, yeah, yeah. Like I told you on the gentleman that was running that duplex from me, I sold, did an owner or contract for deed for him, I probably do four to five a year. I will tell you, there’s a there’s a we talked about like, Have you ever gotten one back? I had a deal. I had spoke at a real estate investor meeting probably two years ago. It turned into four or five deals. And then I also had just purchased this house in West Tulsa, 46 in Vancouver, right? Not, not an area I normally would buy in. But it was a random phone call, and it was a hey buddy of mine called. He say, I got a three bed, two bath, two car, 1350 square foot, 56 grand. Take it or leave it. I’m like, wow, yeah, I’ll take it. I’ll take it. And so, so I probably the ink hadn’t dried. I hadn’t had maybe a week, 10 days and and I had a guy call me and say, Hey, man, would you do an owner finance? Would you buy this house in North Tulsa, which I hadn’t had any yet in North Tulsa. He said, 82,000 bucks. It needs 30 or $40,000 rehab, two bed, one bath, 800 square foot. I said, Would you, would you rather like a three bed, two, bath, two car doesn’t need that kind of rehab for 82 grand. He’s like, absolutely cool. I got one so, so, I mean, I didn’t do anything to the house. And, you know, from 82 to 56 I mean, you can tell the difference, right there, yeah, and I want to finance it to him, and he did a great job the rehab. And, I mean, I kid you not. Like, six months after we signed the deal, he got a car wreck, and he died June of last year, right? And a good friend of mine told me, he’s like, Hey, I know you’re, you’re friends with this guy, and he just passed away. And, and I’m like, crap. And so, of course, like, you know, his payments were on time all the time. And so this is September. What do we do? October, August. So he died June of 23 This is August of 24 I’ve been keeping the thing, keeping people out of it. I’ve been mowing it often, you know, just keeping it mowed and stuff like that. And so I’ve been in a probate that, actually, I’ve got a September 20 date, that I will either get completely paid off for what the debt he owed me, and or if I don’t get paid off, nobody bids on it, then I get the house back. It’s free and clear on my end. And so anyway, those are some dangers, right? Like, you don’t ever think that, like a 30 year old guy is going to die tomorrow. Yeah, it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to get the house back tomorrow, so you got to wait for the legal process, you know, so But generally, what I do, especially knowing that now I’m very, very careful on who, who I’m choosing. It’s not, I’m not just saying yes to owner finance on every one of them, just because just because, like, it’s been a little bit of a hassle to to make sure that, you know, squatters aren’t breaking in and shaking sure the lawns cutting that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I definitely do it. I still, I still am a 10% interest guy. I always sign documents, just because, you know, if it’s worth. I’m trying to think of the best way, if it’s worth talking about, it’s worth putting on paper, yeah, so everything’s got to be signed up, so no handshake deals. Yeah, so, but that space, man, I think there’s still an opportunity. Now I think when rates drop, it’s gonna be less attractive. So as the rates are still high, it’s still a good time. So if there’s anybody that ever has any questions, man call.

Mat Zalk 45:21

How do they reach you?

Max McGuirk 45:24

Let’s see [email protected], uh, cell phone number. Do you ever give yourself a sure go for it? Yeah. Uh, 918-231-9343, uh, shoot me a text first. Generally, like, I answer my phone all the time. But if you got any questions, say, Hey, this is so and so I want to ask questions about owner finance. Like I said, I use David Dryer, True Title all the time. He does all my contracts. I help with the food pantry. Once a month with him, it gives me a free hour to talk to him, ask questions, yeah.

Mat Zalk 45:55

Yeah. And it’s again, David Dryers. He’s a great guy. He gets a lot of tire kickers, so he might push you off the first and once he knows that you’re serious and do deals, yeah, he’ll give you his time. He’ll help. He’ll help answer questions on the contract for deed stuff or the subject to stuff. And yes, and he’s great well,

Max McGuirk 46:12

and he’s super busy man. He’s got me like bothering him with two houses a month and probates and all kinds of stuff.

Mat Zalk 46:19

Max McGuirk’s, a former high school teacher who’s been investing in real estate since he was 20. Since he was 21 with long term rentals. He’s a serial entrepreneur. He owns and operates a DJ and Photo Booth company in Tulsa. Is that true?

Max McGuirk 46:30

It is. I was I was booking a Christmas party before I met you today.

Mat Zalk 46:37

And he was under contract and wrestled for the WWE after college in their development of territory in Tampa, Florida in 2009 and 10. That’s before he got into being a real estate agent and buying a ton of properties as a as a full time profession. Max. We appreciate you being on the show.

Max McGuirk 46:57

Awesome, man.

Mat Zalk 46:58

Thanks for your time.

Max McGuirk 46:58

Yes, sir.

Mat Zalk 46:59

Thanks.

Outro 47:03

Thanks for listening to The Same Day Podcast. Tune in to a new show each week and be sure to subscribe to get future episodes.